"Trans people should not be allowed to use women’s showers and changing rooms, proposed NHS guidance says" - Darlington Nurses draft new guidance.

Men need to stand up and support women.
If it’s gender neutral than the men’s feelings aren’t my concern. I’m entitled to use the space (sounds familiar I agree).

Unfortunately there only needs to be one male person to completely wreck it for all the other women around.

I know this thread is toilet-centred but let's look at women's sports instead.
Your average non-athletic 16 year old boy can break a woman's world record in most sports, quite easily. By the time that one boy becomes a trained athletic man he'll be dangerous against all the women he's up against.

How about women's refuges and prisons. It only takes one penis to impregnate every single woman in that space. These women are enclosed, vulnerable, locked up, no escape.
One person with a penis can rape all of them.

How about women's awards. One person with a penis who wins it, it's no longer a woman's award is it. Because TW aren't women. If a TW uses the women's facilities, they aren't women's facilities anymore. We don't have them anymore.

I did cover for a cleaner for a few months for illness. I can concur that the Women are actually worse than Men for the state they leave bathrooms. Used towels on the floor, urine on seats, excrement on the outside of the bowl. For the most part the guys it was skids inside the pan.

Which is no reason to make it worse.

Of course they shouldn’t use biological women’s spaces, as their perceived identities are theirs alone, but a third space sounds fine. 👍

Transwomen won’t use the mens

Fine, but they need to keep out of the women's. So we need to stop calling them transwomen.

Making another group feel uncomfortable isn’t a solution.
Men aren’t the issue here
Transpeople are.

True but the women’s toilets in public places can be just as disgusting.

This.
I’d be happy to go in and use these facilities to get changed. Fat, old and I don’t care. Let the men feel uncomfortable with my being there. Let them complain about needing men only changing areas.

Which is where this argument has started.
Transwomen ( biologically male born ) won’t use the mens

Except men pee on the ground and around the bowl. So for women wearing skirts it’s all a bit crap unless they go in marigolds aready.

The description "people with a penis" has arisen because we aren't allowed to say "men" when talking about male people.

Often people will say "people with a penis" when they aren't allowed to say "men" and don't want to say "Transwomen" because transwomen has the word women in it but still means the same thing.

Transsexual surgery involves taking the penis and turning it inside out, so transwomen with a facsimile of a vagina still have their penis it's just been mutilated. They still count as "people with a penis" because they still have the penis.

Seriously, how many people who identify as trans are there? It seems like a huge expense to provide "third space" facilities for a tiny number of people.

How about men use the men's facilities, women use the women's facilities and we just accept that you can't change sex. As we all know.

Single use toilets with sinks inside them is the simple answer. Then none of us have to share.

If we re fighting for equality and the right to womens only spaces I think you’ll find that suggestion is in contravention of equality.
Everyone has rights.
Yes, even men

Make men's facilities gender neutral.

I’m guessing typo last sentence = shouldn’t

🤣🤣 missed it. You updated apologies

It’s not just crimes though. It’s the privacy of the women that’s important too. There are plenty of lovely men in the world - but I don’t want to share a changing room or toilet with any of them. I don’t care if they’re old, gay, trans, disabled, got a penis, got no penis, got half a penis and no prostate, got long hair, wearing make up, the most lovely man in the whole world, etc. They’re all still men and they shouldn’t be in women’s single sex spaces.

At least it was offered. If there aren’t any trans people to compete that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be offered every year. Then there’s no reason for trans people to compete in another category and make it unfair for everyone else.

In reality there’s always been a third space for things.
ie Accessible spaces
Its quite normal, just not so much for trans people particularly.

They tried wilth swimming..
https://news.sky.com/story/transgender-world-cup-swimming-races-scrapped-because-no-one-entered-12976203

Yep third space for transmen and fourth for transwomen.

Its all about safety and dignity.

No males in female spaces full stop. It should never even have been considered an option.

It matters not what said male has done to himself via clothing, presentation, chemically or surgically, or whether they are in possession of a piece of paper which endorses a legal fiction, the line is simple - no males in female only spaces.

Use the facilities provided for your sex, the one you were born which never changes and if that doesn't suit request/campaign for alternative provision. Leave the female provision alone, it is for females.

I use mixed facilities where they are available. Speaking primarily about cubicled toilets and changing facilities, not only I don't mind sharing with men but there is also less of a queue than the queue to get into female-only space.
I am sure plenty of people on here used family changing rooms at a swimming pool without much thought. Our local Lido has mixed showers. They are separate shower cubicles with a little dry area for taking your clothes off. Fully locable and not even remotely an issue.