"Trans people should not be allowed to use women’s showers and changing rooms, proposed NHS guidance says" - Darlington Nurses draft new guidance.

But anyone who's read any of the many threads on this topic on MN will know that third spaces, where they have been provided, do not in fact provide a neat solution. Because this is all about validation for many transwomen.

For those suggesting a third space - the NHS is on its knees financially, it isn't right to spend ££££ on this issue.

Male and female should be sufficient. Men shouldn't be in the female area.

Exactly this, if you have or have ever had a penis you do NOT belong in womens spaces.

Sadly Mumsnet has banned us from using accurate (and neutral/non-offensive!) terminology to describe this category of person, so we have to tie ourselves in linguistic knots instead. The most one thing that no transwoman will ever be is a woman!!

0.018% of the population have a DSD
The claim that it was as common as being a redhead was made by someone who included women with pcos as "intersex"

I'm sure those with better memories than me can give you plenty of examples of times when there have been discussions on the issue without a single female involved -because the token woman slot has been allocated to a tw.

There is no way to police this though. You can't ask people at the door to prove their sex. The only way to guarantee that a female will not be sharing a space with a male is to make everything as individual cubicles.

Male entitlement and misogyny - just like the men who demand access to women’s safe spaces because they call themselves Susan

Oh come on now, don't be ridiculous.

You think that the 5 WOMEN should vacate the WOMEN'S changing rooms and use a manager's office or a toilet (the available alternatives) so that a MAN could use the WOMEN'S facilities instead?

The term "intersex" is offensive. The accepted term is DSD. And people with DSDs are always either male or female, there is no "in between" or third sex so people with DSDs are perfectly able to use the bathrooms appropriate to their sex.

Aside from that, true DSDs make up a vanishingly small percentage of the population.

A 2018 (I think 2018?) study found that when assaults in bathrooms/changing rooms in sports halls leisure centres were looked at in depth , 90% of the assaults took place in mixed sex/gender neutral facilities rather than the single sex ones. Mixed sex facilities place women and girls at greater risk. There's no escaping that fact.

And your opinion matters more than the women affected because ....?

We have to stop buying into this by saying Trans women-this is what is muddying the waters.
If we replace transwomen with the correct word-MEN-that everyone but the most simple will see the dangerous idiocy of it.

How about men’s, women’s for female dna only, and women’s including trans women
bonus for those of us who don’t mind, we get an extra toilet facility

Everyone is transphobic short of total capitulation to men bulldozing their way into every single women’s single sex space according to the poster.

They argue non stop to allow men to have access to women’s safe spaces.

My brother is now a Transvestite or a Trans woman. It's fluid.
I don't want to share prizes, sports teams or facilities with him.
He has got an amazing wig and spent a lot of money on clothes but I still get old schoolfriend messaging that they've seen my brother
Was he wearing a dress?
Yes, drinking in the -+++pub

I wish the men of our local town would be more kind, make my 6ft2" brother in women's clothing feel more welcome in the gents where he belongs.

I think mixed spaces in addition to the standard F and M spaces is reasonable just as it is reasonable for cis gendered people to be uncomfortable with other sexes in their space.
My university already has implemented this and contrary to what some of the comments suggest - lots of cis folk use this space to stand as allies with their trans friends.
I also think it’s important to note that trans folk only consist of a tiny fraction of the population and this space would greatly benefit intersex people who are statistically more common.
I would suggest trans folk (especially trans women) would benefit from this additional space as male toilets and showers are not safe spaces for them, the assault rate for cis men attacks on trans women are absolutely horrendous and I hope for their sakes they get more protections and provisions to prevent them from harm.

Clearly you haven’t.

Why does anyone need to hear from the man pushing boundaries by being in a space not for him thus causing women distress and discomfort? He’s pissing all over their right to change in a dignified manner away from a biological male (hence why these spaces exist) when he could’ve went elsewhere. That space isn’t for him. His voice now is irrelevant.

As the Mumsnet resident misogynist you already know all this but I’ll keep pointing it out for sunlight and any newcomers to this area.

So why not lobby the men to make their facilities more acceptable to transwomen.

I doubt those stats exist as the crime would be reported as being committed by a female

I don't think most people have time for "I'm actually a woman but I've been on testosterone for a decade" sorts of conversations though when you're eg on a maternity ward.

If you have gone to the extremes of body modification to the point where you pass as a man, don't complain that you're not welcome in women only spaces. It's lawful in any case that's the main point.

Transmen are biologically female so the should be using the women's facilities it's transwomen who are biologically male and should never be allowed in female facilities or sports

They aren’t interested. By providing the “pods” which are lockable and floor to ceiling, they are providing us with a safe and secure place to change, apparently. They have made clear that no changing must take place outside of the pods.

I’m a police officer, in case that’s relevant. Despite complaints from every single person at my station, male and female, we’ve been told this is the direction the force is taking and is non-negotiable.

I wouldn't be remotely bothered by Transmen using women's facilities either.

The only voices we haven't heard are those of transgender people

😂😂😂😂
Wow.

You are aware that this TW was using the women's facilities in the first place yes???? That women in real life risked losing their jobs for objecting??? That women have been.... - ofgs never mind.😂

Wouldn't bother me transmen using the facilities, biologically they are still women.