All these issues with schools!

To a large extent, the contract between schools, children and their parents was broken during the pandemic. Many more children accepted school attendance unquestioningly before school closures.

The questioning and 'option' of not going to school produces anxiety in itself. My younger DC, were infant and junior age in lockdown. They found life in lockdown so much easier.

My DS2 in particular had huge anxiety in going back to school to the point of physical symptoms. The knee jerk response to attendance after Covid has been counter productive and entirely contradictory to what we practiced during the pandemic.

I agree that SEN has always been a problem in schools. I left school at 11 (1st year high school) through 'illness' and never went back. My youngest DSIS exactly the same. My middle sis had behavioural problems (at home) and engaged in risk taking behaviour.

I'm currently mid way through ND diagnosis with DD and DS2, at huge expense, as DD has been on the NHS waiting list for years. I want things to be better for them. They are both really struggling at school, even with supportive parents and some school staff looking out for them.

It is fashionable on MN to bemoan young people's lack of resilience and sensitive parents, but it is far better than the alternative. In my case, zero secondary education, sexual abuse, directly due to insufficient adult oversight and guidance.

School is still much like prison, no choice in being there, no choice in what to wear, no choice in what, when and where to eat, no choice in how and when you move your body, no choice in sitting, standing, being outside or inside. That's before you get to the problem of 30 children of very different abilities and ways of learning being taught the same thing in the same way.

The fact there is no workable solution to this currently doesn't mean that we shouldn't discuss it.

I’ve recently moved my y3 child from an almost two form entry school to a tiny village school. Have had a long history with the original school, my 18yo and 16yo went there. It’s not the same school any more. New Head arrived when my older ones were y5 and y6, things have changed significantly. I’m not sure the reasons but I’m guessing a combination of new Head, Covid, changes in parenting (I see “gentle parenting” quite a lot in my own job).

I had concerns that my youngest was dyslexic. Turns out he’s romping along at new school, was moved up two reading book bands within 4 weeks of moving schools, been told his handwriting is now beautiful etc. His y3 teacher at the old school was the most uninspiring, unenthusiastic person I’ve ever met, a young bloke who has only been qualified a couple of years 🤷🏼‍♀️

Something in the system is broken but the school we have moved to is amazing, I wish I’d moved him ages ago.

Schools vary but Humanities subjects at KS3 generally aren't streamed or set (there are sometimes "nurture classes" where those behind in literacy and numeracy do a different take on the syllabus) and neither are GCSEs and A-levels (except core subjects). So you can be teaching an extremely wide ability/concentration/behaviour/attendance range. Of course students may be directed towards/away from certain subjects at GCSE, and A-levels have entrance criteria, but they are academic ones.

For me (I've been teaching 15 years), realising my child had SEN and getting support for her has been so helpful to me as a teacher. Much more so than the very minimal training on it I received.

There's nothing like living it.

I work in a mainstream primary school, but in an SEN provision. We have 8 KS2 children who all have different needs, ADHD, ASD, behavioural problems. (These children can not be in their normal class because they wouldn't cope and the other children wouldn't cope having them there)
It's tough. On Thursday one of my kids picked up a chair and went to throw it at me. When Mum was told all we got was 'oh, I'm sorry'
This same Mum let's her child play 18+ video games and doesn't check what he's watching. (We know this because when asked she replied 'yeah, probably')
Honestly, we do our best every day. These children are getting an education with love and care, but if there's no support at home it's like we are wasting the days!
We also have amazing parents who are on board with us every day and are really trying to help us as much as we help them. Swings and roundabouts 🤷

I agree.

There should be a balance. It wasn't great in the 'old days' when parents had little input but it's gone too far the other way and the complaints I see on MN that are made towards teachers suggest that parents have or think they should have so much input that they're dictating to teachers how they think they should teach or mange their classroom/pupils and that isn't healthy and must take up an inordinate amount of teachers time fielding all these queries/complaints.

Because it's been stated on this thread several times, including by teachers who feel unable to teach..

Please can we stop assuming that SEND means "academically behind"? It doesn't. It may, but there are DC in every school with some kind of SEND who are extremely able and are in top sets/streams (where applicable).

I have mentioned my DH further up the thread. He once got more than 100% in an O level (think it was Physics) as because he was so bored in all the time he had left over, he went back and re-solved some of the questions using a different method...

@OhMargaret

Why would you think that they are not streamed?

I am a Governor and I have been absolutely shocked and horrified at how much teachers have to do/deal with before they can even think about teaching.
Parents are also a HUGE problem, most issues could be solved with better parenting, although quite a lot of the bad parenting is because they can't not won't

I appreciate that but if the number is truly 25% it must be having a catastrophic effect on the other three quarters of the children. Surely the kids who can cope with mainstream school should be streamed - not only for their own sake but for the sake of anyone getting any kind of education at all.

Labour are screwed because the Tories left them with an education system in crisis and no money with which to even come close to fixing it.

The outcome of the curriculum review will be interesting.

Labour are reducing options ever further, they are wedded to 1 size fits all

This.

My DD just 15 has been out of school since April. She is in no way disruptive or annoyance to others. She is shy to the point of being timid and will do anything to fade in to the background.

the one size fits all approach is no good. Sooner this is done away with, the better.

Often, people who don't have many other job options at the time.

That's not to insult TAs, many of whom in my experience are good, kind and diligent.

But the salary makes it a starter/stop gap/pin money job.

It doesn't help that TA funding comes attached to a particular child with a statement or EHCP so if that child moves schools perhaps from mainstream to other provision then the funding for that TA will be cut. Does the TA have to leave or reduce their hours if shared between two or three children as the school cannot make up their salary as budgets are so tight. Who would take on a job like that with such insecurity?

@noblegiraffe it's true in core subjects that classes that are small tend to be so because students are struggling in the subject, but when you teach an option subject, as I do, classes may be big or small for all sorts of reasons often unrelated to the ability of the student.

My subject, a current affairs subject that lends itself to discussion, works best between 18-25 students. Fewer than that and the atmosphere can be lacking (and student ability differences/SEND can make those students feel conspicuous) and more than that and it's a struggle to fit everyone in and move (I mostly teach 16-18 year olds).

I struggle to keep on top of marking essays once overall numbers reach 70ish.

Absolutely, the problem is the environment. The most rigid structure imaginable and teachers have to produce results with a huge diverse cohort.

Because each SEN child is different, it's complex. My son is academically capable. He's average to above in all classes. But he shouts out, moves, fidgets, gets overwhelmed and frustrated ( he never ' kicks off') but he's not stupid and with a lack of understanding re social rules will argue back if he sees something is unjust or unfair. This is time consuming, disruptive and annoying to others. But, with the most wonderful teacher and some very minor accommodations in mainstream ( these behaviours calm right down) and results are wonderful.

I think mainstream really is the right place for loads of SEN kids but they need additional resources to enable kids to have extra support. TAs would be a gigantic help for a start. Separate learning spaces for kids who are overwhelmed and disruptive because of it. There's so much that could be done here.

I wish someone would also overhaul this ridiculous curriculum. The ' problem' with many ND kids is their ability to see through bullshit, not conform to the bullshit and then ask why am I being subjected to this bullshit. I'm finding it increasingly harder to be positive about the system when child asks why.

( Homeschooling is not an option and I don't think child would like it after a week).

My daughter has autism and other diagnoses. She hasn't attend full-time school for over a year. Her behaviour is not disruptive at all - in some ways this has hindered getting support because she is so quiet as to be almost invisible. Nonetheless, trying to meet her needs does require time and effort from school staff. They need to seat her specially, remember not to ask her to answer questions, remember to send across lesson resources from the lessons she can't attend. This is just for one, non-disruptive child.

Trying to meet all the different types of need with ever-limited resources is impossible.

There is no support for autistic children outside of school, apart from a limited amount from the charitable sector. The NHS dismisses all mental health difficulties as something to just be expected with autism.

Yes because the system is so rigid and ‘one size fits all” now that unless your brain works in a very specific way and you fit the mould of the person it was designed for you are going to struggle. The lack of send schools is not the problem. The diversity of brains is not the problem. The problem is the environment.

I think children with send are often the canaries in the coal mine with education - they suffer most visibly when the classroom is chaotic, the teacher is overwhelmed/poorly trained/ not a teacher, and the curriculum expectations are overly rigid, but other children are also affected.

it is true that the lack of send schools and massive backlogs in all aspects of send assessment and provision mean there are kids in mainstream that shouldn’t be. The majority of send could be (and historically has been) taught in mainstream, but cannot cope in the current environment.

When I was at school many years ago teachers were far more educated than parents and so were held in high esteem and could do no wrong. The child was always wrong and the SEN children would be left to day dream if quiet or removed from the school if not.
When my children were at school it was difficult to actually contact the school - the receptionist was akin to those at the GP, teachers wouldn't get back to you and complaints were ignored and the only time you could actually speak to a teacher was at the open evening where the teacher seemed to read from a script.
Now my younger siblings are forever complaining - they have email, class what's app groups and much more demanding plus fathers being more involved and supportive.

I think there are teachers with understanding of SEND, but maybe insufficient knowledge.

There is an assumption here, which is increasingly untrue, that the child has a teacher.

Tittat50
-People listen to children now so rotten teachers can't get away with as much abuse

It also means that a lot of good teachers are being investigated for doing their jobs and if their face doesn't fit being forced out of the profession.

I think there are teachers with understanding of SEND, but maybe insufficient knowledge. Every child with SEND is different, has different needs, requires different management ( for want of a better word) and has different responses.

Years ago the CoP for SEN stated that the expectation was that 3 children in a class of 30 would have needs sufficient to warrant additional support and a smaller proportion would require a statement, now EHCP. Clearly, the numbers are much greater now and I’d agree that it’s closer to 25% than 12%.

At the beginning of this century, funding for SEND could be diverted to other needs in schools. I made myself unpopular by insisting that the SEND budget be spent on the children it was intended for. There are certainly children who are ND and have difficulty coping in school and their response is to challenge. There are children who are NT and display behaviour that’s difficult to manage in a classroom and impacts on the learning of others.

Again, in the early 2000s, my school had an inclusion room, staffed by senior staff. A child who was not responding to the usual sanctions could be sent, with work, for the remainder of the lesson. Of course, the work hardly ever came with them, certain children would ‘arrange’ with their mates to be sent there and as a member of staff, its intimidating to be faced with 20 people who have no desire to be there, or even in school. I had six lessons a week in there and the only time I’ve had to hide my tears is in that room.

It’s complex and very difficult, but it’s about appropriate funding, appropriate skills, appropriate placements, support services of all kinds and parents who are invested in the education of their children and support them and the school they attend.