Asking fathers permission to propose

Those of you whose boyfriends asked permission from your father....what would you have done if your father had said no?
What if you want to say no to the proposal? Doesn't it add a layer of weirdness?

That would be an instant dump from me.

Maybe 'I don't know of anyone who...' would solve that rather overly pedantic annoyance?

I am not from the same white British culture.
I am Irish, now living in England.

None of my Irish friends and family or English friends have done this.
I was born late 60s

it seems we are both finding the comments and experiences of others on here mind boggling

I find it hilarious when people say 'I don't know anyone who' in relation to a particular subject.

Have you REALLY discussed their pre-marriage arrangements with EVERY SINGLE PERSON you know? Really? You know for sure whether the partner of every single one of your colleagues, your friends, the people in your gym, your postie, your haridresser, your mechanic....asked their parents for permission before they proposed? If so you've got an odd idea of appropriate conversation topics.

As I said, I know about my sisters and 2 of my closest friends which represents about 1% of the people I 'know.' Of the other 99% it could be that every single one of their partners asked their parents for permission or none of them, I wouldn't have a clue, and it would be completely arrogant of me to make a ridiculous blanket statement of 'I don't know ANYONE,' based on a sample size of....four.

A pp mentioned they knew of someone doing it possibly because they came from an island somewhere and maybe it was the thing on that island.
I was wondering the same as you mentioned you knew lots of people that had done this.
Hence, the ‘cultural’ question.

My DH asked my dad and I thought that was so sweet - it took a lot of guts to speak to him as it’s a shy person and was quite young at the time.

tbh doesn't really speak that well of your father...

If you want your DH to ask, or whatever combinations of agreeing to all this is, then fine.

But i will judge people who think this is desirable in this day and age.

If you are from the same white British culture as me I find it completely bizarre that you don’t know anyone 30 years ago who did this. Just as much boggling to me as it is to you as it was very standard amongst everyone I know

I have two sisters and both of their partners asked my parents, and know a few friends whose partners did as well. We're early 30s. I personally wouldn't like it but it's not uncommon.

To be fair in my BILs versions they asked both parents not just my dad, and it was for more of a blessing than permission. Personally still wouldn't be a fan but my sisters were fine with it and that's what's important - knowing how the person you are marrying feels, not anything else.

“Bog standard’ not big.

I am a typical white British woman living in SE England with generations of typical white british ancestors. If by cultural you mean big standard white Brit culture then yes. That’s me. As are all my friends and family.

I think people don't really think about why this tradition started and what it actually meant. Or if they do then they are of the opinion that because it doesn't mean what it used to mean, it's now a good or at least a neutral thing?

So I guess the question is, is it 'good' for people to participate in rituals that have disturbing origins?

It's harmless now because permission isn't actually required, so just the ritual survives? And the ritual has become about, what? if it's showing respect to the father then that's problematic in itself and would indicate things haven't actually changed all that much. Why do you need to get even symbolic permission from a parent to make a life decision with an adult?

I'm probably overthinking it. People want to do it because they think it's nice and don't think more of it than that.

My DH and my dad just used it as an excuse to go out for dinner together. He did not ask my dad's permission to marry me they just had a lovely meal 😂

No idea about C of E
Catholic wedding here

No rehearsal, no discussion on vows, no obey,
Think it was expected dad would ‘walk me down the aisle’, not by my dad though as he knew me too well. He didn’t. No one said anything.

My dh also stood on the traditional womens side of the church as well, I think he was making a point there as we’d spoken about it. I was more than pleased to stand on ‘the man’s side’. I could see the priests confused smile 😊

Obviously that doesn't apply to all men, justin. But if you've spent time around a lot of men, you know that patriarchy just isn't going away
I'd fully expect a man to ask me for permission to marry my daughter. We're many years off thankfully, but yes, I would

I have two adult sons and they wouldn't dream of asking permission and would regard it as ridiculous. My DH didn't, and my Dad thought my brother was a weirdo for asking his future FIL.
My dad didn't ask for my grandfather's permission in 1965!

The patriarchy gets dismantled slowly by people refusing to engage with that crap; by woman not accepting 'traditions'; by raising sons who see women as having full agency.

I think it's a ridiculous old fashioned idea that, as a PP said, makes it seem like a woman belongs to a male member of her family.

My SiL did ask me before he proposed to my daughter but he comes from a small island where maybe these things still matter.

My DH did that too, asked both of them. He did it in his usual awkward way which my parents thought was a hoot! It's something we still giggle about 20 years later.

I see myself as a feminist but I can't get worked up over this.

I'm not sure. I got married in 2000 and was shown a copy of the vows at the rehearsal- there didn't seem to be a choice. I scanned through quickly to check there was no "obey" so I was happy with that. This was the methodist church and I think there would have been more options in the CofE though not sure if that's still the case.

The minister who married us was quite forward thinking about these things. He said he much preferred to leave the "giving away" aspect out of the ceremony as the bride should be coming to be married of her own free will, not given. I was delighted and completely agreed!

He also asked me to please put back my veil before saying my vows as apparently that is how Leah ended up married instead of Rachel, only removing the veil and revealing herself after the ceremony. He wasn't suggesting there would be any actual attempt at impersonation, rather that it was symbolic of the bride presenting herself openly and honestly, and not "hiding" herself in any way. I liked that too (I did have the veil over my face as I came up the aisle though!)

Well yes, quite, but also do note that Austonian permission asking was really all about money exchange rather than literal or emotional permission. So the 'refusal' from Henry Tilney's father was him saying he would disinherit/refuse Tilney financial support if he married Catherine. Edward Ferrars being refused permission to marry Lucy Steele and his defiance of that resulted in him being cut out of the family tree and out of all the money. The silly/nonsensical proposals e.g. Mr Collins as you say, but also Darcy's asking Mr Bennet, Mr Knightley having to bargain chicken-protecting duties with Mr Woodhouse etc are silly precisely because there would be no realistic or reasonable grounds for the father to turn the prospective groom down because he obviously has a lot of money, and the bride has little or no significant money that can be withheld in the case of parental disapproval. Mr Bennet even says that he gave Mr Darcy permission to marry Lizzy even when he's under the mistaken belief Darcy is a proud stuck up bully who his daughter has no liking or respect for. Hardly romantic stuff is it!

There are lots of examples in Austen of marriages going ahead without parental sanction or even in the case of active parental disapproval too, for better or worse (Robert Ferrars and Lucy, Fanny and Edmund Bertram) and Persuason is a whole book all about the stupidity of a woman trusting her parents to make better decisions for her than she can on her own behalf, so it's really not a great argument in favour of 'romantic' permission asking like in an Austen novel!

Think it entirely depends on the daughter and dad tbh - I wouldn’t have liked it but my sister in law did.

I stand by what I've said. I've dealt with men my whole life who secretly don't respect women. They'll be polite because it's expected but that's it.

Obviously that doesn't apply to all men, justin. But if you've spent time around a lot of men, you know that patriarchy just isn't going away

I'd fully expect a man to ask me for permission to marry my daughter. We're many years off thankfully, but yes, I would

My daughter isn't my property but I would be expecting that he will take care of her and protect her

It's one of those traditions that is upheld by respect more than anything. Obviously, my dd can do what she wants but I'd take a dim view of any partner that didn't want my approval of their suitability for my dd

If she was a lesbian, I'd still expect the partner to come to me for approval - but I wouldn't feel so disrespected i suppose

A lot of misogyny is still romanticised, chauvinistic traditions transmuted into being seen as “loving” gestures, and signs of some kind of “respect”.

Oops sorry Justin, pasted the wrong username. My bad. We are in agreement!

The whole thing about asking permission is that it implies the right to say no. My grandfather certainly believed he had that right, and it caused a great deal of unhappiness for the whole family over many years. It’s a toxic tradition.