Asking fathers permission to propose

As father of two doctor girls, one suitor asked and we now have a great SIL, the other did not and has been dismissive of me. He seems to think I had no part in providing him a wife who could support him and his children if he was unable to.

You make it sound like you were fattening up a pig for market! I guess through having a good education and parental support, your daughters have become strong and independent women, capable of making their own decisions, including who they marry.
I’m sorry to hear you don’t get on with your SIL. I hope he makes your daughter happy.

On reflection (because I've just been thinking about this a bit today so close to my own wedding!) my soon to be husband didn't ask permission as such; more asked for a blessing from my parents. I think it was more for approval than for anything else and to reassure them. My lovely dad did ask him if he knew what he was getting into 'taking me on' 😂😂

A couple of thought come to mind...
Being engaged was of a time when girls married younger and had fewer job opportunities. The ring meant an exclusive relationship and was a cash investment by the man that she could own. It's symbolic these days.
As father of two doctor girls, one suitor asked and we now have a great SIL, the other did not and has been dismissive of me. He seems to think I had no part in providing him a wife who could support him and his children if he was unable to.
With age came realisation that earning potential, decent honesty sound wider family and generous spirit are things that I'd want to know about if asked.
Inherited wealth used to follow male lines in family. I'd object to passing mine on to a witless narcissist SIL

My husband knew I'd have been annoyed if he had asked - it's not up to my Dad! Luckily my Mum also thinks it's a weird thing to do so my Dad didn't ask my Grandad back in the early 70s.

I decided to propose to my husband on his birthday (we had already talked about marriage in the future and I thought it would be fun as it was a leap year too). I used to work near his mum (in the same building) so when I ordered his ring I popped down to her to show her it and asked for her blessing. She was delighted and he was too (got down on my knee as well 😁).

The latter is still very much part of the traditional wedding today 😜

I didn’t wear white because I didn’t want to.
(Did wear a bra though - not that much of a raging feminist!!) DH and I gave some thought to the various traditions, adopted those we were comfortable with, and adapted / disregarded the ones where we weren’t. We’d probably do it differently again were we getting married now. I do think the whole ‘permission’ thing is pretty difficult to defend though.

I don’t think there are any key board warriors on here, trying to protect you. Any one can think and do what they want. We are just having a discussion, which contains some disagreement in points of view, but that’s fine.

My husband asked my dad. My dad laughed and said ‘what would you do if I said no?’ My husband laughed and said he’d ask me anyway. I thought it was kind of sweet that my husband was confident enough seek my dad’s approval before asking. His own dad is dead and my dad had become a bit of a father figure to him too. I think it’s completely unnecessary but if people are in a dynamic where they want to do it I don’t understand why it’s an issue. Why can’t we just let people do their own thing without getting all worked up about it. I’m a strong independent woman - I don’t need mumsnet’s keyboard warriors to protect me thanks.

Nothing like depriving women of agency and disguising it as quaintly old fashioned. The guy who seeks permission from your Dad for your hand in marriage is the same guy who will assume all responsibility for the family finances and cut you out of the big decisions.

It’s a dreadful tradition, that thankfully few people follow (I imagine). If DH had asked my dad, he’d have been embarrassed, my dad would be embarrassed, everyone would be embarrassed. I’m glad he didn’t.

It's completely cringe. But it takes all sorts.

Exactly. People can do things differently, because just because it’s “tradition”, or “it’s how we have always done it”, doesn’t make it necessarily right, especially if it has misogynistic and chauvinistic origins.

Agreed. Didn’t Queen Victoria introduce the fashion of wearing a white wedding dress, when she married Albert, so starting a whole fashion trend? Also it didn’t have to do with virginity, but rather a sign of wealth/status and being able to flaunt that wealth, on your wedding day?

Traditions such as wearing white or having flowers don't involve women being treated as possessions. A man asking a women's father if he can marry her very much is.

As a PP has pointed out, it’s possible to show the first two of these in many other different ways. And I’m not into tradition purely for tradition’s sake when it has its roots in misogyny. To me, it’s mindlessly performative at best, and in the case of my own family, extremely damaging.

Without these “die hard feminists”, you wouldn’t have had the choice either way, you wouldn’t have had any of the rights that you enjoy today, as a human being, as a woman. People are allowed to point out the insidious nature of a tradition where one man is giving away his property i.e the daughter, to another man. Clearly, many people don’t see this tradition in those terms as much ans it’s evolved into something else, but it doesn’t change its misogynistic provenance, and that’s what makes it for me, an outdated tradition.

Lots of stuff about getting married in a traditional way is pointless.
Gardly any brides are virgins so why the white dress? We have showers and soap now so why the flowers festooned everywhere and the bouquet.
Loads of people don’t believe a jot in god or religion but still get married in church.
Loas of people still have their dad or male relative walk them down the aisle to ‘give them away’ Why? Do they own them before that then?
Most brides and grooms don’t meet on the morning of their wedding before the ceremony as it’s ’bad luck’ Utter nonsense.
And there are dozens more just with weddings alone.
People like to follow traditions. It’s not harmful or used in a posssion way now so what’s the harm.

Of course it's up to them but feminism doesn't just mean 'women choosing stuff'. A choice isn't feminist just because it's a woman making it.

I would have considered it ridiculous. Luckily neither of my husband's did.

Exactly! All these ‘die hard feminists’ who think their way is the only way! It’s women’s right to choose after all and if they choose to want their father walk walk them down in the aisle, if they are happy for their fiance to ask their fathers ‘permission’ to marry, then that’s entirely up to them!

Father would not have said no. Even if my father didn’t like the guy, he would just have been polite and said well you need to ask ‘insert my name’ because if she’s happy, I’m happy.
Its not about possesion, it’s just respect, kindness and tradition.

My dad had died 10 years before I met my DH. When we got engaged we just told my mum, no question of asking her permission, and I think she would have thought my DH was nuts if he had asked. Been married 34 years now.

I got engaged in 1987 and my mother told me that my father was 'very upset' that my fiance hadn't asked him for permission beforehand.

I went ballistic - I told her that it was 1987, not 1887 and I wasn't my father's 'property' to dispose of. Also told her that I was the one marrying my fiance, not my father, so was the only person he needed to ask.

I'm still fucking livid every time I think about it. I told my fiance that if he had asked my father I would have turned him down. Sexist and misogynistic behaviour.