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AIBU?

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Am I or is school BU?

108 replies

SchoolProblemHelp · 27/11/2024 23:48

Name changed for this as this situation is probably very recognisable to those who know me.

Having some issues with DD’s school at the moment and before I make a formal complaint want to know if I’m being an overprotective mum or if school is handling this wrong.

DD has Autism and Tourette’s Syndrome. Had lots of support in mainstream primary school, teacher’s aide, maths intervention as she is very behind in this, access to quiet area when overwhelmed, able to take time away when suffering tic attacks etc. All of this was provided at school monitoring level and so she has no EHCP in place and we are told she would not meet criteria for one as she was coping just fine with this support.

Went to high school this year and all of this support was withdrawn. New school say it was never a formal plan so no duty to provide it. Still claim she won’t meet EHCP level yet also don’t agree she needs school monitoring support she previously had.

Couple of recent incidents involve:

  • Being given detention for not finishing Maths work despite asking and not receiving help (we are aware she is 12 months behind in Maths and in a mixed ability class so she found this above her level).
  • Being given detention for walking out of lesson when suffering a tic attack as another child was laughing and imitating her tics back to her.
  • Being made to stand up in class and read aloud and told off for ‘being silly’ when she starting ticking due to nerves by a teacher who apparently had not been informed she has Tourette’s.
  • Being given behaviour points for ‘chewing gum’ despite it being known by the SEN team that one of her common tics is rolling her jaw as though she is chewing.
  • Being given behaviour points for ‘throwing’ a pencil that flew out of her hand when her arm ticked. And when I raised this with the school being told it is her responsibility to inform the teacher at the time that this was in fact a tic, despite this meaning having to disclose her medical history in front of the whole class including children who bully her for this.

The cumulation of the above now means she’s been put on report and has to approach each teacher in very lesson to ask them to write on her report and take it to the head of year at the end of the day. Something she is very anxious about doing as her Autism means she struggles to approach people.

Am I expecting too much of a mainstream school or should school be resolving these issues and stop punishing a child for their disability. If I could get her an EHCP and move her I would in a heartbeat but to get an EHCP you have to show that the school intervention isn’t enough and it was, in primary, but now school won’t put the support in place.

OP posts:
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SchoolProblemHelp · 28/11/2024 16:45

MiraculousLadybug · 28/11/2024 16:02

The plan in the email sounds really good OP, and nothing like what you outlined in your OP, is your issue that you don't feel it reflects reality? Because it looks like they're taking lots of reasonable steps. I am concerned that if you complain when all this stuff is actually being done for her, you're going to come across as "that parent" so you need to be really clear about what isn't happening in practice and what actionable steps (not special treatment) the school's teachers can realistically enact to enable her to meet the same outcomes as everyone else.

@MiraculousLadybug The plan is brilliant. The issue is that no teachers follow the plan and when I raise this I’m told they can’t make the teachers read it. If the plan was followed we wouldn’t be having a problem.

OP posts:
SchoolProblemHelp · 28/11/2024 16:44

Octavia64 · 28/11/2024 15:49

I can't read the plan so cannot comment on it, sorry.

However I see they're going to let your DD use a Chromebook which sounds good.

I'm an ex maths teacher and the Sparx automatic homework is a nightmare for many students.

So in theory it adjusts to your level and as the teacher says there are videos and explanations to help you get the questions right.

We also as a department ran lunchtime "detentions" which were actually a teacher sitting there helping the students do their homework. It does mean that the homework gets done and it's not a meaningless punishment.

What specifically is the issue with the homework? Most parents solve this problem by either doing it with their child or letting their child cheat.

If you are going to stick to the letter of the rules then your child will end up in "detention" which is actually extra support each week and the teacher there can help her do her homework,

Can you ask if she can take her packed lunch into the "detention"? That's what most of our students did.

That email saying they will apply for funding for a Chromebook was 4 months ago. We are still waiting.

The issue with sparx is that is doesn’t let you move on until the question is answered correctly. How can it possibly adjust to the students level if it never allows them to be wrong? It makes her watch videos over and over and eventually swaps the question for another one and the same area which when she also doesn’t know it repeats the process. I sat with her and after an hour she was still stuck on question 2 of 30. The other parents tell me they let their child use chat GBT to answer it but I worry that is simply masking her difficulties in maths and will allow the school to say she doesn’t need maths support.

And yes while she technically can take a packed lunch into detention she will not eat in front of people she isn’t very close to as her tics mean she can be a messy eater and she is bullied for this.

OP posts:
SchoolProblemHelp · 28/11/2024 16:40

noblegiraffe · 28/11/2024 15:22

I am absolutely horrified by the lack of communication around your DD's SEN to her teachers, who can be made to read her IEP. The register at my school is set up so that students have flags and sticky notes next to their name so teachers can see whether a child has a pass to leave the lesson or a diagnosis or autism without having to open up any learning plan. This means that supply teachers can also see the info as they are taking the register. Is there anything like this at the school that her details can be added to?

The lack of intervention for maths unless an EHCP student is away is unfortunately not surprising due to the severe funding cuts in school. A lot of secondaries now only have TAs that are funded by EHCPs and no 'spares' who could do interventions with other students.

If you want extra support for her in maths, the opportunity here appears to be in the lunchtimes where teachers give up their time to support students with their homework. It might be an idea if she could go to these sessions? (Rebranded as maths support rather than homework detention?). I don't know Sparx but it appears it is supposed to present students with work at their level so the homework should be appropriate for her even if she is behind?

Definitely send an email to the school with basic info about her needs and ask it be forwarded to all her teachers immediately and complain about the lack of action. No EHCP doesn't mean no support, that's ridiculous.

Sparx is hell on earth!

They say it tailors it to your level but I can’t see how that is possible as it does not let you get a question wrong. It plays videos on how to solve the question on an endless loop until the child gets it right or gives up altogether. You can swap the question for another one but it gives you a question for the same area, e.g multiplication and if you don’t know that one either you are stuck.

OP posts:
SchoolProblemHelp · 28/11/2024 16:36

BrightYellowTrain · 28/11/2024 15:03

Be careful with SENDIASS. Some are good but far too many repeat the LA’s unlawful policies.

Many secondary schools are unable to provide TA support in lessons without an EHCP. That will be why support in lessons is only possible if a pupil with an EHCP is absent. This is why you need to request an EHCNA.

Interventions can happen during the day. Saying they can't because pupils miss lessons is trying to fob you off. However, again, the school may not have to staff to provide interventions without an EHCP.

Ask the school to introduce DD to other pupils who go to the snack shack daily.

The way the snack shack works is each year group gets one day they can use it. Hers is Wednesday. The other days they must use the canteen. She won’t enter the canteen due to the noise levels so she currently only eats in school on Wednesday. I asked if she can use the snack shack on other days and they agreed but she is too scared to go there alone and they won’t allow her to take a friend so she continues to not eat in school except Wednesday.

OP posts:
NewName24 · 28/11/2024 16:07

She does have an IEP in place but this is quite basic and also I have been advised by the SEN team “we can’t make the teachers read it”.

Shock This underlines why what @FluffMagnet said in the very first reply, last night, about sending them an e-mail after any meeting or phone call, confirming what they said to you, is so helpful. It is absolutely shocking that the SENCo is suggesting this. Of course it should be highlighted to the teachers. That is something that should be raised as a complaint, if you can evidence it.

Yes, I know secondary teachers see a LOT of pupils, which is why it does seem like a good idea for her to carry a copy of the pass with her (even if it is you that has to print it out and laminate it) and also carry a copy of her 'One page Profile' and her IEP with her, to give to staff as she enters the room. Maybe with you writing in red at the top "DD has autism, so that makes it difficult for her to communicate her needs to you, verbally / in person, hence her handing this to each teacher until they get to know her better."

I'm sorry you are going through this. It shouldn't have to be a battle.

MiraculousLadybug · 28/11/2024 16:02

The plan in the email sounds really good OP, and nothing like what you outlined in your OP, is your issue that you don't feel it reflects reality? Because it looks like they're taking lots of reasonable steps. I am concerned that if you complain when all this stuff is actually being done for her, you're going to come across as "that parent" so you need to be really clear about what isn't happening in practice and what actionable steps (not special treatment) the school's teachers can realistically enact to enable her to meet the same outcomes as everyone else.

Octavia64 · 28/11/2024 15:49

Oh, and print out her plan with the virtual exit pass so she has a physical one.

Several copies.

Octavia64 · 28/11/2024 15:49

I can't read the plan so cannot comment on it, sorry.

However I see they're going to let your DD use a Chromebook which sounds good.

I'm an ex maths teacher and the Sparx automatic homework is a nightmare for many students.

So in theory it adjusts to your level and as the teacher says there are videos and explanations to help you get the questions right.

We also as a department ran lunchtime "detentions" which were actually a teacher sitting there helping the students do their homework. It does mean that the homework gets done and it's not a meaningless punishment.

What specifically is the issue with the homework? Most parents solve this problem by either doing it with their child or letting their child cheat.

If you are going to stick to the letter of the rules then your child will end up in "detention" which is actually extra support each week and the teacher there can help her do her homework,

Can you ask if she can take her packed lunch into the "detention"? That's what most of our students did.

CautiousLurker1 · 28/11/2024 15:41

FluffMagnet · 28/11/2024 00:17

Google the Equality Act. No duty, my arse. You need to escalate your complaints and get everything in writing. Any face to face discussions, minute immediately afterwards and send as a follow email (" I drew your attention to XYZ, you said ABC and we agreed you would ensure the following actions 123 are completed.") Check out the complaints procedure now, and start escalating as soon as you are able. Your poor, poor daughter.

As an aside, if you have email addresses for each of her teachers, send an email to all explaining her disabilities and staying that to date she has been punished several times for said disabilities. I am sure they'll all be mortified and hopefully raise questions internally as to why they had not been informed of her SEN. She cannot be expected to tell each teachers on front of a class all her sensitive personal information. Failing which, a note to each from you, that she can hand in at the beginning of a lesson.

This - plus write to your MP and LEA. Shocking treatment!

noblegiraffe · 28/11/2024 15:22

I am absolutely horrified by the lack of communication around your DD's SEN to her teachers, who can be made to read her IEP. The register at my school is set up so that students have flags and sticky notes next to their name so teachers can see whether a child has a pass to leave the lesson or a diagnosis or autism without having to open up any learning plan. This means that supply teachers can also see the info as they are taking the register. Is there anything like this at the school that her details can be added to?

The lack of intervention for maths unless an EHCP student is away is unfortunately not surprising due to the severe funding cuts in school. A lot of secondaries now only have TAs that are funded by EHCPs and no 'spares' who could do interventions with other students.

If you want extra support for her in maths, the opportunity here appears to be in the lunchtimes where teachers give up their time to support students with their homework. It might be an idea if she could go to these sessions? (Rebranded as maths support rather than homework detention?). I don't know Sparx but it appears it is supposed to present students with work at their level so the homework should be appropriate for her even if she is behind?

Definitely send an email to the school with basic info about her needs and ask it be forwarded to all her teachers immediately and complain about the lack of action. No EHCP doesn't mean no support, that's ridiculous.

BrightYellowTrain · 28/11/2024 15:11

I don't think she needs an EHCP, what she requires is understanding and strategies

OP’s DD needs both. The school needs to be making reasonable adjustments and not discriminating against DD. However, she will not get all the special educational provision she requires at a SEN support level.

stanleypops66 · 28/11/2024 15:07

Definitely complain to the head a board of governors. Under the DDA and the equality act she has a disability that requires reasonable adjustments and adaptations. I don't think she needs an EHCP, what she requires is understanding and strategies, which costs very little.

BrightYellowTrain · 28/11/2024 15:03

Be careful with SENDIASS. Some are good but far too many repeat the LA’s unlawful policies.

Many secondary schools are unable to provide TA support in lessons without an EHCP. That will be why support in lessons is only possible if a pupil with an EHCP is absent. This is why you need to request an EHCNA.

Interventions can happen during the day. Saying they can't because pupils miss lessons is trying to fob you off. However, again, the school may not have to staff to provide interventions without an EHCP.

Ask the school to introduce DD to other pupils who go to the snack shack daily.

StormingNorman · 28/11/2024 15:00

Absolutely put in a complaint. At the very least all her teachers should be aware of her conditions and how they present in class.

Basic compassion would suggest your daughter should be able to leave class while ticking.

Their behaviour is appalling. I hope she’s not being too upset by it x

SchoolProblemHelp · 28/11/2024 14:58

This is also her (again redacted to remove names) learning plan.

She already has a pass to leave the class when needed but they no longer issue physical passes and it’s virtual and as the teachers don’t read the plan they deny her using the passes.

Am I or is school BU?
OP posts:
SchoolProblemHelp · 28/11/2024 14:50

I have attached (redacted to remove names) emails from the SENCO where I was told my child can only have support in lesson if an EHCP child is absent. And from the Maths teacher who minimised the detention as a friendly supportive session, but it’s still compulsory and still means she misses her lunch break and also said that she expects 100% on the maths homework despite knowing my child is very behind in this subject.

I am in regular contact with the SEN team and individually contact her teachers as problems occur. It isn’t like they don’t know this is happening. They just keep excusing it.

Am I or is school BU?
Am I or is school BU?
OP posts:
InformerYaNoSayDaddyMeSnowMeIGoBlameALickyBoom · 28/11/2024 13:48

My dd is also autistic and has seizures that are very similar to tourettes tics.

Her school were also very slow to provide help, but I went in, fought her case and now they can't seem to do enough for her.

She doesn't have a 1:1 but the school have issued her with a card she just has to show and then she can leave immediatly and go to the support for learning lounge, she is on a very reduced timetable, she's allowed to wear headphones or earplugs, she can wear what she wants to school, any incidents of bullying due to her disability are dealt with swiftly, and she has a support teacher who checks in with her weekly to discuss anything and make adjustments as needed.

The school should be making reasonable adjustments to allow your dd the same access to education that everyone else has.

I would (and did) spend the weekend going through the school handbook and policies, and printing off the laws surrounding disabilities, and go for a meeting next week armed with all the ways they are failing your dd and why its illegal.

FrippEnos · 28/11/2024 13:45

SchoolProblemHelp

From what you have posted your initial problem is the SEN department of the school as they are trying to push blame on the teachers.

Hankunamatata · 28/11/2024 13:37

Hi. I have two children with echp and 1:1 adult assistance for high school and still encounter problems.
My experience is that they won't let kids leave classroom unless there is an adult to go with them as they don't want them wandering around school. My sons TA has had to chase other kids around the school as there isn't enough support staff (badly paid, no hol pay etc but that's another story)
Most teachers don't read about sen of the kids and they can have 10 plus different teachers. One of my kids ended up taking credit card size bits of cards with his sen details on them as he got sick of explaining and popped them on teachers desk as he went into the room

ByHardyRubyEagle · 28/11/2024 13:30

Can you contact the SENCO about this? Although given the way your daughter is being discriminated against I’m not sure the SENCO is even doing their job. You shouldn’t need an EHCP for reasonable adjustments to be made and your daughter being put under SEN. This should be in place whilst an EHCP application is pending anyway.

Jellycatspyjamas · 28/11/2024 13:23

I didn't attempt my maths because it was too hard. She should have had a go!

Have you any idea how hard it is to “have a go” when you know you’re behind your peers, you’re feeling anxious because you don’t have full control of your body and your needs aren’t being met in school. Learning is much easier if the work you’re doing stretches something you already know, it’s nearly impossible if you have no existing frame of reference.

seven201 · 28/11/2024 13:11

Sorry, I've not read the whole thread. I'm a secondary teacher and a mum - I'd be so upset if my dd was treated like this.

Can they at least give her a time out card for when she needs to leave the room to tic? Can you write a note in dd's planner that says something like "DDs mum here. Dd has Tourette's and she had no control over what just happened. I've told her to show this note when she has been reprimanded for something outside of her control due to her disability. Her autism means she doesn't have the confidence to speak to you directly and does not like the attention in front of others. Any issues please contact me or Mrs X the senco."

KillerTomato7 · 28/11/2024 13:04

Xmasday2024 · 28/11/2024 09:06

am kind of 50:50 on this.
I think you need to adjust your expectations a little. Secondary schools are very different to primary school.Each teacher depending on subject may teach as many as 500 or 600 kids over the course of a fortnight. If say nearly 20% have an SEN, they can't have an intimate knowledge of each child's condition and needs so your child does need to speak up.Also I think your child is milking the situation a bit, I mean 'I threw a pencil because my hand slipped.' Come on! I didn't attempt my maths because it was too hard. She should have had a go!

“Milking the situation.” You think she’s milking the systematic discrimination and bullying?

I hope you don’t work anywhere near children with disabilities. Shame on you!

Lougle · 28/11/2024 12:56

I had similar with my child. On SEN support but not actually getting support. I suggest the following:

  1. Put in a Subject Access Request. That will give you all the incidents recorded, attendance figures, emails between staff about your daughter, SEN conversations, etc.
  1. Apply for an EHC Needs Assessment, using the information above to show that the school are not meeting your daughter's needs.
  1. Point out that although the SEN Code of Practice recommends Assess, Plan, Do, Review, the fact that the school haven't done this shouldn't delay your DD getting the provision she needs.
MillicentBystander2022 · 28/11/2024 11:35

@Xmasday2024 Your comment is exactly why I say tourettes is not understood by many people. "My hand slipped and I threw a pencil" is so insulting and is the attitude that causes anxiety in people with the condition. A tic isn't a controlled action and it can be highly distressing.

Not only that, but when children try to suppress it, it takes up all of their focus and attention. Therefore, completing other tasks like school work is 10x harder and they need support. You should learn about it if you're going to comment.

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