97 Yr old Gran waiting 8 hours for an ambulance with a broken hip!

So sorry, that's disgusting. Where I live the ambulance was there within an hour or so. Unfortunately it was the lack of care in hospital that made it worse, ie infection so he became delirious and they assumed he had dementia. It was just post covid so limited visits, basically none. Had it been non covid and we could all visit and say no, this isn't right, he's not drinking because he can't lift his cup up and being sick and no one noticed, wheel to the toilet but needed help. I do think that the care became slacker when no-one was able to question yo it and see for themselves. The amount of infections in hospital, especially urinal, need looking at big time!

Unfortunately it’s been like this years my deceased mother in law lay on the floor for 12 hours with a broken hip,shoulder and arm.
unfortunately she never returned home from hospital as she never fully recovered

I cant speak for the poster but my MIL who waited 12 hours for ambulance when falling and breaking her hip was in Wales. Doesnt boad well for any improvements under labour

Wow, I worked for the nhs from 2005 to 2018 and have never heard of this! Which speaks volumes. 😂 Can't say I noticed a restructure, maybe it didn't affect the minions.

That's terrible, poor woman. Has someone at least been in touch to give advice? Can I ask what part of the country? Where I live the ambulance response services have been really good, whereas some areas seem to be diabolical. Hope she's OK and seen soon, she deserves so much better. Xx

Ah yes - public sector procurement. The mechanism designed to get value and so effectively circumvented on every NHS piece I've ever worked with.

I have wanted to tear my hair out at times when trying to recommend a "Ford Sierra" solution to fit the current and future needs only to have the procuring managers insist that they absolutely must have a Rolls Royce and a Ferrari to do the business equivalent of the school run. Then to have the neighbouring fiefdom insist they must have their own Rolls Royce and Ferrari instead of sharing the Ford Sierra and saving a bucket load of money and still have excess capacity and reliability for their needs.

Oh and the managers who share tenders with competing organisations where they just happen to have a connection.

And how I laughed when a colleague, new to working with the NHS expressed surprise at the money wasted and slow progress due to fiefdoms simply not being willing to cooperate let alone collaborate in the best interests of both patients and staff. I cannot think of any organisation or business sector in public or private where I've found such resistance to looking at what can be learned even from the experiences of other NHS fiefdoms, let alone other health care models or (gods forbid) other sectors. They always know best, their way is best and then its somebody else's fault when systems and services fail.

There was a brief period where I was persuaded to take on a piece of work for the NHS during covid - it was the only time I can ever recall any real cooperation between groups. However the dysfunctional relationships were so established that it was difficult to make the best of that collaboration. Sadly that moment of cooperation disappeared rapidly and post pandemic it was (dysfunctional) business as usual. Patients and staff both deserve better than this.

As it happens this thread caught my eye due to a very similar experience to the OP's some years ago. I posted here at the time. That was pre covid. Another similar experience in the wider family happened in 2011 - long before the impact of austerity and after 13 years of heavy investment. These problems are not new and cannot all be pinned on covid and austerity.

You’re absolutely right. I couldn’t agree more with the first two sentences of your last paragraph. My criticism of the current system is the tendering process which is time consuming, bureaucratic and expensive.

The sheer obduracy of the fiefdoms and unwillingness to change and even cooperate with each other is just not there

Sorry badly phrased - should be:
The sheer obduracy of the fiefdoms precludes and willingness to change or even cooperate with each other is just not there

Oh I don't disagree at all. The problem is governments of both complexions have tried reorganising/restructuring health care and failed equally to bring about real, long term improvements. I don't think they ever will although I'd be very happy to be proved wrong by Streeting if he can turn it around and make it patient centred.

In reality though, I've been involved in too many pieces of work under governments of different philosophies to believe he can do it. The sheer obduracy of the fiefdoms and unwillingness to change and even cooperate with each other is just not there. (Which is why so many of the business and supporting systems are antiquated and a dreadful experience for both staff and patients).

IIRC you (like me) believe in tax payer funded, state backed healthcare. I'm a pragmatist - I don't care who delivers the service, I just want it to be good for the patient and secondarily the best value for money. I've experienced better care and better value under state backed insurance models which have to modernise and offer at least a decent level of patient centric care to survive.

I think that's being a tad melodramatic!

There are certainly times when areas are overwhelmed and in crisis, and pockets of awful delays, but we tend to hear about the bad more than the good. When I've needed to call an ambulance it's arrived reasonably promptly, GP appointments have been available on request, and A&E trips have varied in length from 1-4 hours.

I'm not denying that sometimes huge delays happen, and that the consequences can be fatal, but saying that its just not possible to get an ambulance in must places is patently untrue.

Money was massively wasted on additional layers of bureaucracy, minimal accountability and vanity projects which delivered poor value.

You mean like the 2012 Lansley Act that spent £13 billion on the biggest restructure the NHS has ever seen? All with no effect whatsoever on patient care?

In France the SAMU comes to the rescue actually.

Absolutely. Let's hope this government doesn't mis-spend to the extent the last one did.

This is the same Spain which the Nuffield (NHS lobby group) insists runs an NHS just like ours? Despite the need for co pay insurance?

You might want to dig into the raw data and definitions underlying some of these graphs and reports, many of which come from or via lobby groups. Its genuinely hard to make close comparisons.

However even in times where spending has been similar (or higher in the UK) outcomes have not matched up. I remember digging into the raw data on a number of these glowing reports from quangos and lobby groups in 2010 because I was knees deep in yet another massive waste of money in the NHS.

Like many people I was hopeful that the 97 election would lead to more money but also modernisation of health care. The money went in, the matching modernisations and improvements did not. Money was thrown at wait lists - that is what gets the headlines. Money was massively wasted on additional layers of bureaucracy, minimal accountability and vanity projects which delivered poor value. Oh and casual corruption was rife. That is what happens when an organisation is elevated to national religion and a myriad of unmanageable little fiefdoms are not accountable to the top. By 2010 for the money poured in the state of health care should have been vastly better than the "average" compared to peers in Europe than it actually was - the reality was still operating with business processes which belonged in the '80s (and largely still do).

There is another interesting side effect of state backed insurance models. People are actually more willing to invest more in health care because they are more involved in the costs and decision making. They are also more willing to pay up when they experience and see good customer service at the most basic level - eg simplicity in managing appointments, consistency is the systems they deal with.

Its not an accident that the rest of "large state" Europe took one look at the NHS model and said "er no thanks".

All those complaining about the new government and signing the ludicrous Trump inspired petition calling for a new election should know who to blame for this terrible state of affairs. Thatcher started it and her followers have made it worse. I hope your gran is receiving appropriate care now.

In France you get an uber, unless, for example, you are lying unconscious in the road. Once you get to the hospital the care is immediate and very good.

This government has done absolutely nothing about or for social care and support services for elderly people stuck in hospital. What are families supposed to do? Parents have to work full time to pay for their homes, feed their children. Gone are the days when mum would stay at home and look after everyone 24/7. Carer's allowance is nowhere near enough to compensate someone for giving up a full time job, it certainly isn't enough to pay the rent or mortgage.

This is what I hear from friends who have lived in NL as well.

It’s just not possible to get an ambulance any more in most places and a waste of time trying unless someone is in imminent danger of death. You would be better to go to the nearest van hire, hire a van, drive it to her home, take a door off its hinges, move her onto the door, stick her in the van, and drive to the hospital.
I’m being serious here. People have to assume there is no ambulance service any more and just improvise. I know it sounds like something out of the Third World, but public services in the UK are Third World, it’s just that nobody wants to believe it.

Definitely not, if anything you'll be seen more promptly if you make your own way to hospital. Ambulances are really only of benefit for those to sick or injured to be brought by any other means.

There's a massive problem with people recognising some warning signs/that they or their child should have an a&E checkup, that it might be an emergency, but think that means they need to call 999 for a lift to hospital! Our absolutely typical patient that gets taken to hospital is asked to take some of their own paracetamol for their symptoms, walks onto the ambulance, has a routine set of OBS, gets dropped off the other end. 45% of calls in my trust are discharged by paramedics, not even a chat with a Dr on the phone (i.e. presentation so minor/well appearing patient just needed self care advice or signposting to GP - these are people who've deemed to call 999!).

If we as the public expect the emergency service to be dealing with the worried we'll, we absolutely cannot ever expect them to also be managing emergencies promptly so have to take the sacrifice that the pedestrian knocked down by car will routinely wait 30-60minutea, the elderly broken hip at home 2-8hours.

Might vary across the country, but in my city at the moment cat2 calls currently have a 2hr response (this is abnormal breathing, stroke, heart attack). Yet the huge majority of people live within 15min drive of the hospital. Why the hell would you sit and wait 2hours when you could be at the hospital in 15minutes unless you absolutely had no choice? I know if any of my loved ones have chest pain or a stroke I wouldn't consider calling 999. But I goto work all day and night hearing "well I've been having this pain in my chest for about 6months now, GP says it's reflux and the meds do help, but I was thinking I should get a second opinion and TV said to call 999 for chest pain,what do you think???"

When you arrive at A&E with chest pain you'll get ECG and bloods early on - if they're abnormal and indicate treatment you'll get escalated rapidly. If they're normal then there's a wait. If you arrive by ambulance then you have the ECG which can quite often be normal even in a heart attack, but you don't get the bloods until you're booked into the hospital. The ambulance patient waits around 2hours for the response, maybe 20mins in the house, then driven to the hospital, then 2-4hours in the car park being monitored, then the important blood test only after being booked in. (although currently changing rules and soon we'll be dropping chest pain looks well I to the waiting room with out any handover.

The NHS actually has fewer managers than comparable sized organisations.

Overpopulation AND loss of the European workforce? Can't have it both ways. I'd say it's under resourcing myself as most of the people who have migrated to the UK in recent years (I assume that's the point you're making) are younger, working, and paying taxes and NI. Austerity policies decided that the government was just going to cut resources to this useful stuff and give tax breaks to the very wealthy.

Storing old stock. Something new comes along like a dressing and all stuff in use now gets stored.
So many hospitals lost their canteens due to needing space to store.
Give it to Ukraine, burn it, do something other than storing it.