What do you think of Australia's vaccine policy?

I think it is referring to the fact you don’t just get the measles vaccine it is mums and rubella etc

There is also a cocktail of chemicals that make up the vaccine

I find it really disheartening how simple many responses are, assuming that anyone who isn't for mandatory vaccination is an "anti-vaxxer" who thinks vaccinations don't work.

This kind of thinking actually increased resistance to accepting the COVID vaccine among people who were themselves willing to get it, in places like Australia and Canada where it was effectively mandated.

There are three serious reasons to be wary of mandated vaccination, that don't really have much to do with their efficacy:

1. There are risks to vaccines, and there are ethical issues with requiring people to take a treatment that is risky when it has the potential to be harmful to that individual. There is lots of literature in medical ethics about this - to what extent does the good of the many outweigh risks to individuals? In liberal democracies, the bar for that has historically been set quite high.

2. Along the same lines, there are very serious ethical questions around the extent we can mandate people take medical treatments and drugs in general. The right to refuse medical treatments and drugs is very basic In our society, and the more we compromise that, the more we can, by law, be subjected to other kinds of interventions that the authorities see as useful. There are enough scandals out there of bodily autonomy being compromised in medicine, for the good of "society" that we should give us pause - things like forced sterilization, using people for tests, and so on. Also - if you compromise rights to bodily autonomy that will potentially have effects in other areas outside of purely medical issues. Again - there is a huge literature on this in both law and medical ethics.

3. It's an own goal. There are lots of organizations involved in vaccination campaigns in areas where people are suspicious and resistant, like parts of Africa. You know what doesn't work - forcing vaccination. It has the opposite effect and increases resistance to accepting vaccination. So that is not the approach groups like this take. They know it will mean people go under the radar and take other measures to avoid vaccination and it undermines trust. This is no different in western nations. Mandating vaccination makes some people feel morally superior but it doesn't really convince the people who need to be convinced, it just entrenches their opposition.

Barbaric? Give your head a wobble!

Like what? What do they add in? Why is the risk too much NOT to vaccinate your child. Measles can kill you know.

I agree with getting your kids normal childhood vaccines but does it include the covid vaccine? Because if it does its barbaric

Honestly the thing that changed my mind was looking at the impact seatbelt/child seat laws have had.

You can educate people until you're blue in the face and it doesn't work - we are just not built like that. Not for issues like this. The problem is that you can go about everyday life being unvaccinated, or drive around without a seatbelt, for years, decades even, and have absolutely nothing bad happen. The only time something bad will happen is if you have a crash or if you come into contact with an infectious pathogen. Those things are rare - and outweighed by uncountable experiences of not needing the protective thing and having been fine. In general, we (as in, humans) are built to learn from experience, not theory. We can learn from theory of course. And second hand experience - very few people who see the consequences of non-vaccination or not wearing seatbelts would advocate for the safety of not using these things. (That's why PSAs tend to be so shocking/frightening/emotional). And some people are very risk averse and would go for the most protective option anyway just in case. But for the vast majority of people, repeated experience of the non-protective option makes it seem mundane, ordinary, and safe. That is simply how human psychology works and you can't easily change it.

Laws though for this kind of thing do tend to change behaviour. You can have routes out for people who are really genuinely concerned because ultimately the behaviour of a minority doesn't really matter in terms of achieving the overall goal. But the majority of people don't actually feel that strongly either way. Nobody really likes having an injection or taking their child for one. Nobody likes the hassle of car seats. It is slightly less comfortable to wear a seatbelt than not wear one. Without anything saying you HAVE to do these things, a lot of people will simply not bother. But the moment you make it slightly inconvenient not to do them, it starts to change the social/cultural narrative. These days it is just completely normal to wear a seatbelt and you're seen as a bit of an idiot if you don't.

I don't think it's helpful to write off vaccine-hesitant parents as "idiots" or "crazy" - I think it's actually just a really glaring symptom that there is a growing group of people who distrust medicine and authority/government in general, and that is the problem - why don't they trust? Usually because they don't feel listened to. So I think it's hugely important to listen to those groups and understand what their actual gripes are. Not easily debunkable things like ingredients of vaccines because you can argue back and forth all day on that even though the info is clear and easy to find. No, go to the deep root, and you'll find things like sexism, racism, classism and even horrific crimes perpetrated against minority or disadvantaged groups by governments, medical authorities and so on. That's what needs to be addressed. From the everyday (stop dismissing women's health concerns) to the historical (much better acknowledgement of old harms and new systems in place to prevent anything like "cleansing" ever happening ever again) and the future (encourage young people from underrepresented groups to enter medicine and medical research, politics and government). Also proper funding of the NHS would help so that everyone who needs care can access care.

In WA, they said “No Covid vaccine, no entry to the bottle shop (off licence).”

It worked.

No you don't

Society has to balance personal freedom and the welfare and rights of others.

Presumably you'd agree that if I had some disease that killed anyone I touched I should not be allowed on crowded trains.

On the other hand the common cold is so common there's no reasonable way to avoid spreading it.

You have to draw a line somewhere. Wherever you draw it some will die and some others will be inconvenienced. Some who were inconvenienced may feel it was drawn in the wrong place and that's a valid opinion, but society has to do its best to keep everyone safe.

Its not medical treatment, no? It's to stop stupid people killing others.

Sounds fair enough to me.

I believe that the level of uptake on some vaccines in the UK is starting to fall below that required for 'herd immunity'. This is starting to cause increases in cases of infectious diseases.

I don’t think medical treatment should ever be compulsory. Free and informed consent should always be the baseline.

I think that the mistrust rot set in when the now disproved "multi vaccination can cause/trigger Down Syndrome" issue happened. I don't think that Tony Blair's government handled it at all well, also the BMJ's failure to adequately verify the paper made things worse. I think that health advice in general still seems to treat adults like idiots. When the new adjuvanted flu vaccine came in for over 60's, just before covid, the change wasn't widely publicised and where it was, people were told basically that there was no difference except it was more effective. At the same time, in the US the public were being told that the adjuvanted vaccine was safe and much more effective but the side effects could be more severe which was more honest and true.

Does the Australian policy include a covid vaccine requirement? Can imagine that being a harder sell than some of the others, speaking as someone who's had it.

I’d adopt the policy but go further.

In the event of outbreaks of childhood diseases, any non-vaccinating parent should be liable for massive damages payable for pain and suffering caused by the disease to children who are vaccinated or medically exempt.

A few thousand bankruptcies among anti-vaxxers would focus their minds effectively.

That’s not coercion (nor is denying schooling): it’s making anti-vaxxers responsible for their foolish, selfish choices.

Nah, a man on the bus told me that Bill Gates has nano bots added to all vaccines so that the NBA can track you by satellite from space. He knowsvits true he saw it on the Simpsons.

Another on the fencer here.....I am totally pro vac but I think that the no vac=no school is perhaps going to radicalise some parents and take their children away from safety. A child at risk is a child at risk and deserves the same level of care, also the consequence here falls on the child in terms of their future. I'd also like to see it supported by a scheme that quickly and generously compensates children injured by vaccinations without recourse to the courts. vaccines are safe so this shouldn't be prohibitively expensive.

I'm a Brit and I actually think this sounds like a good policy.

I agree with the policy. Public health is the duty and obligation of everyone in society and, unless there are specific health reasons for not having a particular vaccine, anti-vaccination is just utter stupidity.

like what?

I agree with this policy. Those that don't vaccinate their children are idiots.

Of course I will have to put this otherwise some will get offended - I'm OF COURSE not referring to those who have been advised not to vaccinate on medical grounds*.

My brother nearly died of whooping cough in the early 90s when our neighbours children got it and passed it on to him as a newborn. It has rather fashioned my strong opinion on this.

I think the high trust in public health has abated after Covid. The push to vaccinate everyone with the Covid vaccine was deeply misguided and a lot of people are now suspicious of all vaccines. Huge own-goal tbh

It is coercion and forcing parents that can’t adequately home school to vaccinate. It’s not a free choice.

Its not coercion its applying a consequence to choices.
They don't have to vaccinate their kids nobody is actually forcing them, but its ensuring that they feel the consequences of choice, rather than the vulnerable individuals they put a risk.
Its a great policy