Page 5 | Dealing with teachers who are (imho) bullying children

derivativation · 2024-11-25T17:44:28+00:00

DC is year 8. The school was mostly amazing last year but unfortunately we have had a head change head and several new teachers, with several really good teachers leaving. Several of the new teachers get too critical with the children, saying they are not very clever, that they have no thoughts, their mind is a void, boys are not as good as girls etc. DC is well behaved and so not affected until last week. DC has however stood up for one of the children who was being called stupid by making a light hearted comment. DC was really upset that children were being called stupid and we had decided to try to move school by that point, though it will take a bit of time to organise because of practicalities. But now it has got worse. Last week and today two teachers in classes where DC has done well and the teacher has sung DC's praises (DC does all required homework, does not disrupt classes, puts hand up to speak) talked to DC as though DC had done something very bad and that he deserved to be treated really badly. DC very upset. I strongly suspect that the teachers are intentionally trying to take DC down a peg or two because someone has said they are too much of a smarty pants. DC is quiet and can come across as quietly confident, but DC is not confident at all deep down. The new head is a chocolate teapot who has brought in a series of changes to rules which appear to be designed to humilate and shame children. Any brilliant ways of dealing with this while DC has to attend? If I try to talk to the teachers they will think that I am trying to tell them what to do and it will make things worse for DC. If I tell them that DC is in fact not confident and is in some ways quite vulnerable, they will pick on him. I am not joking unfortunately. I wish I could home school but to set that up would take just as long as finding a better school.

ForRealTurtle · 27/11/2024 17:33

You still haven't said what the teacher said and what your DD said.

FrippEnos · 27/11/2024 17:12

derivativation

Your hypothetical is based on the assumption that this is the only problem/issue within the class.

But this isn't bullying by the teacher

Hercisback1 · 27/11/2024 16:13

moved to a quiet area of the room because of problems in this particular class with noise levels

These lines.

Teacher still doesn't move them. Teacher gives no reason as to why they haven't moved them.

Did the child ask again?

Either way it's not bullying.

Original poster

derivativation · 27/11/2024 15:31

Hercisback1 · 27/11/2024 15:20

That's not bullying.

That sounds like a teacher in a room with a hell of a lot going on who forgot to move a child.

Why assume that, just out of interest? Nothing was said about a busy or full class or lots going on? And if one child is unruly and disruptive would that not jolt the teacher's memory and prompt a quick move of the other child to an empty space?

OP posts:

Hercisback1 · 27/11/2024 15:20

That's not bullying.

That sounds like a teacher in a room with a hell of a lot going on who forgot to move a child.

Original poster

derivativation · 27/11/2024 14:54

Back to the point of the thread, I would like to know what posters would think about this hypothectical situation - I can't give actual specifics because it would be too outing.

Teacher moves a child to sit next to a child who has bullied them. The school knows about the bullying because members of staff had observed it and talked to the child who was bullying and got them to apologise and are generally monitoring the situation etc. The teacher quite possibly was not aware of this and so the parent writes a note to the teacher explaining about the bullying and asking if the child could be moved, and also saying that the child had asked to be moved to a quiet area of the room because of problems in this particular class with noise levels, literally not being able to hear the teacher, and that the child is unable to see the board where they are as they are waiting for new glasses. Teacher completely ignores this. Parent gives more information about the bullying and asks the teacher if they could talk to the person at the school who dealt with the bullying. Teacher ignores again. Child who has bullied is rowdy and spends the whole lesson talking and asking personal questions to the child who has been bullied. Teacher still doesn't move them. Teacher gives no reason as to why they haven't moved them. There is an empty seat in the quiet area of the classroom.

Is this teacher bullying do you think? I am interested to know after all the comments about resilience etc.

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Original poster

derivativation · 27/11/2024 14:40

@Hoppinggreen I can't find your post but wanted to reply to what I read a couple of nights ago. However many years you have under your belt I think that you are wrong about what you say about how reliable a child is at (a) explaining a situation at school and (b) being perceptive about whether they are being treated with respect or not by an adult. I think that you are underestimating children.

I was also thinking about what has been said about lying. I really can't think of many instances of lying in children at the school. DC has said that a lot of the children don't do homework, or get out of hand, etc, but when questioned about it most of them don't lie about it.

I think that you are also underestimating the damage that can be done with flippant "your brain is a void" or "can no one think today?" or "you are stupid" or "you are being stupid" said in humour. I even suspect that this kind of humour might be held to be psychological abuse in relationships nowadays, that is, if this is how you were talking to a partner.

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Original poster

derivativation · 27/11/2024 14:35

In relation to uniforms, I posted upthread about how I attended two schools, one with a strict uniform policy and the other without. The one without a strict uniform code was academic, with more focus on academics than uniform, and most of the children ended up at good universities and successful careers, that is, you could say, had self discipline. The pupils did much better overall than the school with strict dress code (though there additional reasons for this not just the dress code). I am not sure that there is any correlation between strict rules for the sake of rules and future success. It would be better that discipline in schools could be research-based

As far as I know according to research the best way of disciplining children at school is to set out your expectations (many times) give positive instructions about what they should be doing (many times) and provide sufficient support to enable them to feel safe enough in the school environment to think clearly and learn and to want to engage with the teachers and the rules. Most children want to behave well. More attention to helping children who are not doing as well academically would be a good idea too, as a lot of the acting out at DC's school is by children who are behind and can't do the work.

This is nothing to do with what I posted about. Just responding to some of the comments.

OP posts:

Original poster

derivativation · 26/11/2024 21:30

FrodosTemper · 26/11/2024 09:26

That doesn't sound great OP. I was incredibly proud of DS for standing up when a math teacher discouraged the girls in his set from taking Further Maths. The teacher claimed that girls typically struggle with the subject and would be better off considering other options. DS put his hand up and said that gender doesn't determine someone's ability to succeed in math or any subject. Telling young people at school they're stupid is a rather dim.

Your dc sounds lovely!

OP posts:

Lizzie67384 · 26/11/2024 20:34

MrMucker · 25/11/2024 19:08

I work in education, I love my job, I spend my days only with other professionals who love their jobs and it's been that way for decades. We are absolute pros in working hard, supporting children, progressing them, protecting them.

All I get from the OP is that their child can do no wrong even when not in front of their parent's eyes to prove it, and if anyone else in loco parentis is not actively praising them and accommodating their personal preferences, then that person is a bully. Also, there is zero fact base for any of this, but an overriding concern to depict the attitudes of all school staff in a combative and unwarranted way.

I struggle to see what this parent wants apart from maligning the school at the expense of parenting their own child into the sort of mindfulness or self affirmation they can practice when they don't like a tone of voice or whatever else which is actually as innocent as classroom wallpaper.

Stop complaining about schools and parent your child into greater resilience.

All I get from your comment is that teachers can do no wrong?

I had a horrible teacher in school who was an absolute bully and clearly got off on humiliating others

Toomanyvampires · 26/11/2024 20:30

FrippEnos · 26/11/2024 16:29

The problem that teachers have isn't that they don't believe that it shouldn't be followed up, its that they don't have time to follow these things up and often when they pass on the information no-one does anything with it until the teacher brings it up again, (normally because the parents have complained).

As a tutor I was quite liked by parents because I followed up the pastoral side of my group. The HOY/House/Communities used to think that it was great that someone was actually following things up, but very rarely did anything get done as there are so many issues to be sorted.

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Thank you - sincerely - that’s the kind of nuance, thoughtfulness and realism I’d hope for in this kind of discussion. Just wanted to acknowledge you as it all got a bit dogmatic.
I will stop posting though as it’s not my thread and nothing to do with me!

KillerTomato7 · 26/11/2024 17:19

Jifmicroliquid · 26/11/2024 11:00

I still don’t believe a pupil should get involved in the moment. It’s not exactly going to help the situation is it? The teacher isn’t going to say “you know what Jimmy, you’re right and I’m wrong. I’ll stop. Thank you for pointing this out infront of the whole class”
If anything, it’s likely to get the teachers back up even more.
If they have a serious concern, they need to alert another member of staff asap. If that means leaving a room to get assistance, so be it.

But we aren’t going to agree on this so I’ll leave it there.

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It might help the situation for the target of the bullying to know that their peers care about them and have their back. I think any of us would think more highly of someone who spoke up when they saw us being bullied rather than keeping their heads down and pretending not to see.

EvilsElsasPetSnowman · 26/11/2024 16:48

JudgeJ · 26/11/2024 16:36

I once told a 13 year old girl to 'stop fooling about', to the mother this was twisted into I had called her little angel a fool!

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This is what I mean about “misremembering” - intentionally or unintentionally

Children are shit historians even more so when they’re in trouble

My DD has never been in trouble at school (yet!) but she told me about a fight one of her friends had had. Apparently the other girl said something nasty and her mate only said “You can’t say that me”, and then the fight began. DD’s friend got a detention and the other girl didn’t. I smelt a fish. I am friends with many mums and found out that my DD’s friend started it all and what she actually said was “I’ll rip your fucking head off”, before trying to.

EvilsElsasPetSnowman · 26/11/2024 16:44

OP always check if what the children say happened matches what the teachers say happened. All children lie and misremember. I’d be amazed in this day and age if various teachers are calling a child stupid in front of other pupils.

JudgeJ · 26/11/2024 16:36

Makingchocolatecake · 25/11/2024 19:17

'DC has however stood up for one of the children who was being called stupid by making a light hearted comment. DC was really upset that children were being called stupid'

Did they say 'you are stupid' or 'you are being stupid'? Huge difference!

I once told a 13 year old girl to 'stop fooling about', to the mother this was twisted into I had called her little angel a fool!

FrippEnos · 26/11/2024 16:29

Toomanyvampires · 26/11/2024 14:53

Just to say I’m in the same camp as Baked Potatoes. I have the kids with “pleasure to teach” all over their reports. However I’ve been a bit irked on OPs behalf that the sway of this thread is that the child is lying, the parent is a trouble maker, teachers can never be wrong and practice can never be questioned.

I’m not shocked if children get things wrong because they are children. I am shocked that so many teachers think it’s wrong to ask questions if a child feels bullied by a teacher.

Edited

The problem that teachers have isn't that they don't believe that it shouldn't be followed up, its that they don't have time to follow these things up and often when they pass on the information no-one does anything with it until the teacher brings it up again, (normally because the parents have complained).

As a tutor I was quite liked by parents because I followed up the pastoral side of my group. The HOY/House/Communities used to think that it was great that someone was actually following things up, but very rarely did anything get done as there are so many issues to be sorted.

FrippEnos · 26/11/2024 16:21

Bakedpotatoes · 26/11/2024 14:37

I think that is a great way of dealing with it though so that's a shame that the parents complained?

Believe me, I don't think my children are always right and I am an advocate and supporter of teachers. I think that it is a thankless job at times and not one I could do.

My DC have had wonderful teachers so far but I am not naive enough to think that teachers are perfect, are never bullies and all school policies are right and for their own good.

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From memory the complaint was that I had "shamed" their child in front of the class, A word that is/has become far to over used.

The school also told me off for wasting "learning and teaching time".

Teachers know full well that some teachers bully, Some teachers even bully their colleagues.

But some children lie,
Some children misunderstand
and some children mis remember things.
We all do but that doesn't mean that what the child says shouldn't be investigated.

ByGentleFatball · 26/11/2024 15:20

FrippEnos · 26/11/2024 10:02

I would hope that you have gone through your companies complaints policy as you believe so strongly about it.

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Yes. They responded by cutting even more floor staff to escalate the problem xD

Toomanyvampires · 26/11/2024 14:53

Just to say I’m in the same camp as Baked Potatoes. I have the kids with “pleasure to teach” all over their reports. However I’ve been a bit irked on OPs behalf that the sway of this thread is that the child is lying, the parent is a trouble maker, teachers can never be wrong and practice can never be questioned.

I’m not shocked if children get things wrong because they are children. I am shocked that so many teachers think it’s wrong to ask questions if a child feels bullied by a teacher.

Bakedpotatoes · 26/11/2024 14:37

FrippEnos · 26/11/2024 13:34

Here is the thing, (and I have done this)
If a pupil was being told off by me and someone stood up for them.
I have stopped the lesson and turned it in to a discussion.
Asking various questions

What do you think that I am doing?
Why do you think that I am doing that?
Should child A have been doing what ever they were doing?
Have they been given a chance to change their behaviour?
Should they have changed their behaviour?
How should I improve my response?

I was also told off by management as the parent had complained about it.
My response was, "I did what you told us to do in the training the night before."

Whatever happens in these situations some people will always see the teacher as being wrong.
Sometimes they are wrong
But here is the thing that will shock some off the posters, sometimes the children are wrong.

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I think that is a great way of dealing with it though so that's a shame that the parents complained?

Believe me, I don't think my children are always right and I am an advocate and supporter of teachers. I think that it is a thankless job at times and not one I could do.

My DC have had wonderful teachers so far but I am not naive enough to think that teachers are perfect, are never bullies and all school policies are right and for their own good.

FrippEnos · 26/11/2024 13:34

Bakedpotatoes · 26/11/2024 12:34

My children have assemblies about not being a bystander when someone is being bullied, including all. So what they actually mean is just for everyone else, if you see a teacher doing this you must be obedient and not butt in?

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Here is the thing, (and I have done this)
If a pupil was being told off by me and someone stood up for them.
I have stopped the lesson and turned it in to a discussion.
Asking various questions

What do you think that I am doing?
Why do you think that I am doing that?
Should child A have been doing what ever they were doing?
Have they been given a chance to change their behaviour?
Should they have changed their behaviour?
How should I improve my response?

I was also told off by management as the parent had complained about it.
My response was, "I did what you told us to do in the training the night before."

Whatever happens in these situations some people will always see the teacher as being wrong.
Sometimes they are wrong
But here is the thing that will shock some off the posters, sometimes the children are wrong.

Bakedpotatoes · 26/11/2024 12:34

Jifmicroliquid · 26/11/2024 09:40

But it’s not the place of a child to get involved in a discussion between the teacher and another pupil. If genuinely upset about it, her child should have taken their concerns to another teacher or a head of year.

It IS rude for a child to butt in on something going on between someone else.

And for your information I was a very well liked and respected teacher who had fun with my pupils but expected hard work in return.

Children do exaggerate and lie, all of them. You realise that very early on when you start teaching!

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My children have assemblies about not being a bystander when someone is being bullied, including all. So what they actually mean is just for everyone else, if you see a teacher doing this you must be obedient and not butt in?

Toomanyvampires · 26/11/2024 12:20

But I have read your post, what you’ve said is

“I still don’t believe a pupil should get involved in the moment. It’s not exactly going to help the situation is it? The teacher isn’t going to say “you know what Jimmy, you’re right and I’m wrong. I’ll stop. Thank you for pointing this out infront of the whole class”
If anything, it’s likely to get the teachers back up even more.
If they have a serious concern, they need to alert another member of staff asap. If that means leaving a room to get assistance, so be it.”

You are putting the emphasis on how a child intervening in the “wrong” way could put a teachers back up, and what the child “should” therefore do instead. I honestly dont understand why it’s relevant if the child could have approached things in a better way if the issue is whether a teacher is bullying a child. That’s the issue the OP is trying to get to the bottom of, so I’m afraid it does look like you’re trying to make excuses for what happened.

The points about rising above poor behaviour and being resilient has been made by others so I wasn’t directly addressing you more the attitude that’s pervading on this thread.

Jifmicroliquid · 26/11/2024 11:57

Toomanyvampires · 26/11/2024 11:34

I don’t understand why you’re expecting children to have more composure, restraint and deescalation skills in the moment than a skilled qualified professional. Year 8 makes the child 12/13.

I understand teachers have a difficult job and by and large I support and respect teachers. However I’ve no truck with the idea that they can NEVER be questioned and NEVER make mistakes and there are NEVER wrong uns or incompetence just like in any other walk of life. The idea that children must rise above any bad behaviour from teachers and all children need to be controlled and chastised to enable teachers to maintain control isn’t justified.

OP seems quite reasonable and was seeking advice to manage a situation amicably no idea why it’s brought out such defensiveness and authoritarian attitudes.

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If you read my post you’ll not see anywhere where I stated or implied that the child should ‘rise above it’ or be chastised. I’m just explaining why the teacher may have reacted badly to being challenged.

Toomanyvampires · 26/11/2024 11:34

Jifmicroliquid · 26/11/2024 11:00

I still don’t believe a pupil should get involved in the moment. It’s not exactly going to help the situation is it? The teacher isn’t going to say “you know what Jimmy, you’re right and I’m wrong. I’ll stop. Thank you for pointing this out infront of the whole class”
If anything, it’s likely to get the teachers back up even more.
If they have a serious concern, they need to alert another member of staff asap. If that means leaving a room to get assistance, so be it.

But we aren’t going to agree on this so I’ll leave it there.

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I don’t understand why you’re expecting children to have more composure, restraint and deescalation skills in the moment than a skilled qualified professional. Year 8 makes the child 12/13.

I understand teachers have a difficult job and by and large I support and respect teachers. However I’ve no truck with the idea that they can NEVER be questioned and NEVER make mistakes and there are NEVER wrong uns or incompetence just like in any other walk of life. The idea that children must rise above any bad behaviour from teachers and all children need to be controlled and chastised to enable teachers to maintain control isn’t justified.

OP seems quite reasonable and was seeking advice to manage a situation amicably no idea why it’s brought out such defensiveness and authoritarian attitudes.