To ask if people today don’t agree with ivf?!

My friend feels her parents did everything right on this issue, they told her very early, expanded on it as she got older, used books to help explain and answered questions. It’s not how she was told that is the issue.

Funny how you're willing to overlook all the issues with IVF which has a pretty low success rate but won't do the same for adoption and fostering.

My family is my mum and siblings, kids don't even feature in any of our lives, but apparently according to you I have no family! If you have a long-term partner they are also your family. How myopic do you have to be to think biological kids are the only answer?!

I'd be curious to know how your friend was told.

@MsCactus
You're totally right and yes, for myself I find most forms of contraception unacceptable because of this possibility.

Fair enough - but nearly all forms of contraception make it difficult for an embryo to implant in the womb, so even if an egg is fertilised it won't result in pregnancy.

I think the only contraception where you can be sure there's no fertilised egg is probably something like a condom. If you're against preventing a fertilised egg from implanting then you've got to be against a lot of forms of contraception too.

I don't necessarily think your position is wrong - it's good to be consistent. But most people don't even realise different contraception types can result in fertilised embryos that are prevented from implanting, so most people are inconsistent on this

@MsCactus

I mean I like to think I'm at least logically consistent. It brings me comfort that they don't suffer nor are they conscious being so early in development, but I see all human life as having value.

I'm not anti contraception. I'm anti ending a life after conception.

That's interesting. Most of the people on this thread who are anti abortion and anti IVF are pro contraception, so I think it's just worth pointing out the inconsistencies with that. Various forms of contraception can lead to fertilised & discarded embryos

@Needanewname42

Obviously think that's very sad.

@HuckleberryBlackcurrant
How do you feel about the millions of embryos that don't implant, that are either fertilised in labs or fertilised naturally in fallopian tubes?
What about what many consider 'chemical pregnanies' that implant and are lost very soon?

@MsCactus

Yes I am, and happy to discuss that but don't want to derail the thread. I believe life begins at fertilization - when an new and unique human life is created.

This isn’t about robbing Peter to pay Paul. A Dr replied to you previously outlining her thoughts and explained why your argument, in her opinion, is too black and white. I agree with every word she said and she said it more eloquently than I ever could, read that one back. Have a good day.

Adoption is not expensive if adopting from within the UK.

However, I agree adoption shouldn't be assumed to be a simple alternative to ivf.

And how many of these other things are funded from a system which is broken and so badly failing actual sick people ? While we have people waiting days in A&E, huge waiting lists for treatment which is impacting sickness and benefit levels, withholding of beneficial treatments because of cost, appalling mental health services and one of the worst track records for the early detection and treatment of cancer, should we really be allowing expensive IVF ?

The moral judgement on this thread is reserved for the infertile.
How dare the barren ones have children? There is obviously a reason they can't reproduce and they shouldn't thwart that plan.
Drug addicts, abusers, women who keep their baby in draw for 3 years - all fine to pop out kids because 'nature' allows it but let's not have the cosmos has earmarked for childlessness getting above their station eh?

Yet another logic fail. People don’t choose “not being able to have children”, they choose not to have children. The two are different.

Having had IVF I would guess that the PND tendency is related to having spent their conception years in an incredibly stressed environment, followed by a fraught pregnancy praying nothing will go wrong, then the upheaval of a baby with no space to address any of the previous trauma. I didn’t have PND but I still get teary talking about our IVF. It was a very tough time.

However, IVF children have been studied to (generally) have a better quality of life. There’s a body of work that shows that mothers of IVF and donor conceived children are more emotionally engaged and that adult IVF children have better social relationships and happiness. The studies started as researchers were worried the “stigma” of IVF would lead to unhappy kids but it’s proven the opposite.

What's the other option you suggest? A cat, perhaps?

@Mumtobabyhavoc Oh no, not a cat or dog because then the same eejits commenting on this thread will tell you it's just an animal and you're really pathetic if you treat it like your baby.

But with a bereavement there isn’t an option that might bring your loved one back. With grief over not being a mother there is an option which should be offered which might make you be a mother and therefore heal your grief. Plus it’s an unresolved grief if you’re still having to TTC because IVF isn’t an option. If you’ve been through IVF and that has not worked then there can be a finality point that otherwise would not come until menopause.

I accept that unsuccessful IVF treatment will either worsen or at least not improve any mental health problems, and for those in that situation I’m very, very sorry. However just because the treatment very sadly won’t be successful for everyone doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be offered. IVF on the NHS usually has good success rates as criteria are very strict on age, BMI, smoking, STIs etc and attempts are made to test for problems and try other things where possible e.g. clomid for ovulation issues, clearing blocked tubes.

unfortunately- pregnancy is a massive DV trigger so women believe they are bringing a child into the world with a loving partner only for a switch to flick . The sheer amount of LTB posts on here shows how many women have children- and even multiple children - in what they believe to be good relationships, only for that to turn out to be not the case (even if it’s not a DV situation )

I do think that’s been a factor in my decision - I can’t control the actions of my partner but I can choose to be the best mum possible but I appreciate it’s a trade off. I look at women who take the more conventional route and ‘risk’ that and I can’t imagine doing it myself (given the divorce rates in the UK it’s reasonable odds things could go that way)

I am sorry for the experience of your friend! I don’t know how old she is but I also wonder if age is a factor - it feels like when I was growing up it would have been a much bigger thing? Whereas for children nowadays- it’s even taught in school so there’s a lot less stigma socially (except on this corner of the internet but thankfully we’ve not encountered it in real life). It does sound like she never got to meet her donor? I think there’s definitely a push to make sure children can meet if they want to - he sounds amazing, id love to have someone like that in our lives (i thought that the whole time I was choosing donors - even times when I didn’t think they’d be a good fit, I still wished i could go to coffee with them because they just sounded so kind and interesting. )

and thank you- I’ve somehow given birth to the most incredibly happy and confident child- she absolutely radiates joy. I feel if anyone will sail through this, she will. (And hopefully when the baby is born next year , they will be the same!)

Absolutely. The NHS IVF is (rightly so) very much no frills. I almost never saw a doctor, one did my egg collection and one did my embryo transfer but the rest of the time for appointments and scans I saw nurses. Anything that wasn’t totally necessary wasn’t done.

Personally i think IVF is fine for those using their own egg and sperm but I would draw the line at egg and sperm donation. Obviously people have different views on this but mine have been influenced by my friends experience and the many people she knows in the same situation, some I have met and listened to their stories which are heartbreaking for them and their parents too.

As for comparing it to something like DV, creating a child to purposely bring them up in a home with DV isn’t something I’d hope most people would do either, yes it can happen, but to actually plan to have a child in that situation is awful. Things can happen in a child’s life that can have a negative impact on them, like parents divorcing etc, but to plan to have them in a situation which you know can have have a negative impact on them at the time of planning/creating them them doesn’t sit right with me. Personally I wouldn’t feel comfortable taking that chance with another persons life. I tried to make things as ideal as possible when planning my children to minimise the chance of them having to deal with problems in future. If I’d have chosen a partner who was violent towards me at the point in time they were conceived, I know I couldn’t have coped with that guilt, just like if I’d have used a donor and my children went on to have identity issues etc, I wouldn’t have coped with the guilt. You can obviously justify it to yourself from what you’ve said, which is fine, people are different, but that’s not something I could do. I don’t mean for that to sound judgemental, I just can’t think how to word it better.

My friends parents feel so much guilt now for their decision which is something my friend struggles with too. Part of her understands that they desperately wanted her but part of her resents that they would/could make this decision that has caused her so many problems. For years she hid how she felt because she didn’t want to upset them until it all came to a head and they’ve had a lot of difficult conversations over the years.

That all sounds very negative but it’s just my take on it as someone watching a friend go through it. I genuinely hope things work out well for you and your daughter. I’m sure some people breeze through it.

Adoption: difficult, expensive, long waits, no guarantee of acceptance.
Fostering: not your own. Temporary placement. No oarental bonding. Not a permanent family. Troubled children/families you may not be willing/able to deal with.
What's the other option you suggest? A cat, perhaps?

@ItCantHurtYou

but equally- how many people are conceived in the more typical way go on to struggle with their identity for a variety of reasons - I’ve worked with clients and have friends who have struggled with their mixed race identity, children of DV relationships who have to come to terms with what their dad did , parents who have divorced…. Where do you draw the line if the fear is ‘at some point they might struggle with this’ - not get married in case the relationship breaks down? A significant number of them do….

yes, there is a risk my child might at some point struggle with their identity as a donor conceived person - but who can say they wouldn’t equally have struggled if I’d gone the marriage route and ended up divorced or their dad ended up being somewhere on the ‘total prick/bit bloody useless’ line. I take every possible step to ensure they don’t struggle with identity and feel confident in my ability to support them if they do. As PPs have pointed out - thanks to changes in how DC children are raised , those having significant issues with their identity are now in the minority. As mentioned in my previous post - right now she thinks it’s cool- what if years of feeling incredibly confident in her identity because it’s something she’s always valued and explored actually helps her ?

Adoption and fostering being two. I was also speaking more broadly, a family doesn't have to involve kids at all.

Do tell!