To ask if people today don’t agree with ivf?!

I see abortion as an individual choice- to be resolved through the soul contract between mother and unborn child.

Destroying embryos is soulless. There is no contract to play out - only trauma.

Intrauterine insemination (IUI) I am fine with, esp where the sperm donor has consented to the specific insemination.

And consenting adoption is fine, with a grey area where there is a financial exchange from the couples unable to conceive.

But messing with embryos and stem cells is wrong and I believe leads to psychic trauma once when the conscious souls within those embryos reincarnate in future generations.

it needs to be internationally outlawed.

Dont worry birth rates are falling everywhere. Even religious people are having fewer children..
12 million is hardly anything in the scheme of things when you consider the first ivf baby is 46 year old. Majority of ivf babies were probablu born in the rich world which has below replacement rates.

If you want to look at what happens to societies with low birth rates look at rural Italy where they don't even have young people to work in rubbish disposal so the bins are uncollected. I struggled with fertility and would have done ivf if I didn't fall pregnant after 9 years of unprotected sex. DH is getting a vasectomy (on the nhs probably and no one says that is a waste of nhs money, presumably men's health is more important than female health) so whether or not it's produced via ivf or not, we would have produced fewer children needed to replace us. In fact most ivf parents probably dont have more than 2 (it is invasive with a low success rate), nhs only funds the first child as far as I know (and this includes children from other marriages)..

A friend used donor eggs and her child is well but has some serious emoiotnal issues. Almost like you'd expect to see in an adopted child eg attachment disorder etc. so it's interesting to hear you say this. They wonder who the bio mother is and what may be inherited or what is the impact of the process.

Was your friend told she was donor conceived as soon as she could begin to start to understand (likely as a toddler) and does she know who her donor is/is she able to contact them?

I think some of the people against donor conception on Mumsnet don’t understand that things have greatly moved on in the UK in the last couple of decades. It is now standard practice/strongly advised by mandatory counselling in clinics here to tell your child asap that they are donor conceived (so it’s never a shock for them), and also mandatory in a clinic in the UK to have a non anonymous donor too - with the hope/expectation to have some level of contact with the donor once DC is an adult (or earlier with online help) if that is what the DC wants.

I haven’t heard of any donor conceived people in that situation having any issues with their conception (and I did a lot of research before having my DC with IVF using donor sperm in a clinic here). Personally I’m in touch online with my DC’s sperm donor already - I think a lot of donors are happier to be in contact than they were in the past as there has been lots of research into the benefits of contact/or more information for the DC, and donors know they have no chance of anonymity now.

In terms of the general thread, obviously I am in favour in principle for well informed donor conception and/or IVF - and I suspect many of the posters completely against it on here either haven’t done much research to the realities of it (in the UK currently) or have no experience of it themselves.

I have no experience of surrogacy myself so can’t be certain on that - only to say that I have read a lot of articles about commercial surrogacy that do seem paint a very bleak picture (as it does for ill informed, non altruistic egg donation too to be fair). I have no idea if the same is always the case for family/friend surrogacy or genuine, well informed, altruistic surrogacy (or egg donation) though. Unfortunately, like many of these things I suspect it is not a black/white picture and depends very much on the individuals involved - so I am glad we have strong regulation in the UK now for both donor conception and surrogacy compared to other countries.

It us a group with a political agenda.

www.legalizesurrogacywhynot.com/who-we-are

I'm against IVF in principle because I think infertility is nature's way of controlling population increase and shouldn't be messed with just because we can and global population increase is out of control

I hope if your child or loved one is on life support you ensure you switch it off. After all isn’t your people dying natures way of controlling population increase and you shouldn’t mess with it??

Yes, equally painful. 💐

This is an American site with some pretty awful surrogacy and egg donation stories. For those who had no idea there were any issues.

https://www.legalizesurrogacywhynot.com/stories
And some info on the Law Commission's plans to make surrogacy easier (for the purchasers) in the UK:

https://nordicmodelnow.org/category/surrogacy/

Edited to add link

I don’t get this whole “let nature decide” nonsense.

If you’re 100% nature, off the grid living, grow your own veg type than fair enough.

But if you’re not and you accept that science and innovation is a WONDERFUL aspect of our lives (without science and innovation we’d still have droves of maternal and infant and child deaths) - and you’re happy for you and your loved ones to reap the benefits of that - such as take medicine, have surgery under anaesthetic, take antidepressants, receive chemotherapy etc - then to be anti IVF in the name of nature makes you a hypocritical half wit. Because all it is is growing a baby naturally but taking a bit of a detour. Like literally every healthcare choices

Either the anti-IVF brigade are just a bit thick and mean, OR…they see, either consciously or unconsciously people (well let’s face it women) who can’t conceive to be a failure, and their brain is telling them failures don’t deserve what they, success, have. I don’t think that of course I’m just offering how I see the hard-of-thinking view IVF.

And BTW I have no skin in the game, my 2 both came along on the first try but I’m not an arsehole and can only imagine the pain of not being able to conceive naturally.

I totally agree with your views. I saw something about this documentary and they said 10 million babies have been born by IVF. Ridiculous. Especially with the way the world’s population has grown spectacularly in the last 40 odd years. I am very against it being available on thE NHS too. The NHS isn’t for wants.

Surrogacy makes my blood boil so I better not express my views.

I am childfree by choice btw. (Edited to add)

Craved not carved.

Conversely, the most insensitive comments about infertility I’ve had are from people who’ve overcome theirs and managed to have their baby. I would celebrate their joy and happiness, never let my own feelings impact upon their lovely news. Yet, the worst comments and actions have come from those who have quickly forgotten what’s it’s like! In some ways, it is worse than the pain of being infertile. I live with it and make the best out of my life and then WHAM mother of baby (who was once in my shoes!) manages to screw my head up for a brief while.

@Feliciacat If you have never carved being pregnant or having a baby then no wonder you don't feel the same way if the IVF fails unlike women who desperately want it. Kind of obvious isn't it?

This exactly. I obviously wouldn’t be detached if I actually had a child (a very one-upper comment from another poster). But it’s healthy to stay detached from people who might never exist. If I don’t have children then there will be space in my life for other things. If someone has children or doesn’t have children; there’s always the road less travelled!

When I was struggling with infertility (9 years of unprotected sex but 20 months of proper ttc), I told myself that children were nice to have at the end because I thought it was a good way of protecting my mental health as it wasnt something within my control. I told myself that my flat was too small for a kid and we would have so many nice holidays without a baby. But now I am pregnant I am happily rearranging the furniture and visiting daycares and buying baby clothes (foetus is 6 weeks old!)

I had three embryos frozen after my successful round. I have used up two of them (miscarriage and then my son) and hopefully using the last one. Many people are similar that there won't be many embryos destroyed because having any to freeze is very lucky.

@Feliciacat Respectfully:
I don't think it is sold to people that children are essential. I'm interested in your perception though. Are you and your dh on the same page? Going through fertility treatment, and mc, are pretty big for the chance at a baby that would just be "nice to have." Are you really up for it or just going along with it?
For me, and I am only speaking for myself, my dc are not "nice to have." They are utterly fulfilling. I can't imagine my life without them. Nice to have suggests a certain distance, a detachment, and children will know it.

Exactly. There are a lot of different experiences out there. We couldn't have children naturally. We didn't have IVF because of the possibility of discarded embryos. We did adopt. He has brought his own trauma into our lives, but we are certainly not traumatised by failing to have a biological child.

I was adopted and my birth mother didn't even look at me. After having my kids I don't know how she's got through her life knowing this

I wish you al, the best with your IVF.

As I said I had 10 years of IVF without success and I never thought I would find the peace and contentment that I have now. I certainly did feel suicidal at times, especially when taking Clomid, but that drug is known for that (Chlomid crazies). I only want to help other women who may be facing life without children to see that it needn’t be bleak. We are fed a narrative that if you want children and can’t have them you will be miserable for the rest of our lives.

As for my comment about people who would kill themselves if they couldn’t have a baby it came from a place of concern. I am sorry it caused distress.

Exactly far more embryos don't implant than do. I guess you could say that's the nature part of it.
I had 2 then 2 from my frozen stash. I got one crazy child out of the four.

I very occasionally think about two other pregnancies that showed positive and lost a day or two later.

I never think about those other 3 embryos or the 3 that went to research. The odds of any of those three becoming live births was so remote.

@Butterfly8719 thank you. It’s absolutely that, she is the girl of my dreams and I count my lucky stars for her every single day. I scrolled through to read your earlier posts, I’m so sorry for everything you have been through and continue to go through, whilst I’m not there now I remember the pain very well and I wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy. I hope the holiday period is as kind to you as it can be and 2025 brings peace whichever way it plays out ❤️

I'm not. Sorry it came across that way.

Thank you, I appreciate your supportive comment. However, I don’t desperately want a child; I just think it would be nice. I’m doing ivf because my DH says he doesn’t want us to regret not trying when we’re in our 60s (and he’s paying for the ivf). The miscarriage has been awful but I don’t think actually living a childless life is awful.

I have never craved being pregnant, giving birth, breastfeeding or having a biological child. If my two cycles of private ivf don’t work then I really don’t think I’ll have a lifetime of trauma. I just wanted to offer that perspective; some people with fertility problems can adapt perfectly well to a childless life. I don’t know why it’s sold to people that children are essential.