Assisted dying bill (TW assisted suicide discussion)

Treating an infection in someone who is dying is crazy and actually unkind imo. Not terminally ill, obviously people can live full and active lives when terminally ill but once bedbound, in the final weeks then active treatment should desist and supportive measures only continue. Such as analgesia and hydration.

As a Next of Kin I would of course have authority to instruct a hcp to desist in active treatment and provide pain relief only. I'm surprised you are unaware of this. Hcps would discuss treatment with relatives and they do absolutely have involvement in what is appropriate.

I have seen excellent end of life care but it certainly isn't consistent.

I oppose the bill but support a massive light being shone on palliative care particularly provided by GP services.

Can you expand more about why treating an infection is absolutely crazy? Particularly with regards to the pain and delerium that infection can cause?

And tell me more about the authority you would have to ‘instruct’ an HCP. How far do you feel that authority to instruct should extend?

The logical argument is treating an infection in someone who is dying prolongs the inevitable and prolongs suffering. Yes give steroids to, for example, reduce icp in those with brain tumours but please don't make patients suffer more with unnecessary blood sugar checks.

Pain and distressing symptoms of course should be controlled but treating an infection is absolutely crazy and I would instruct any palliative care hcps not to do so with my loved ones. Though any palliative care professional worth their salt would not need instructing. Sadly, that is where the problem lies. End of life care is clearly variable in quality.

And this is why it’s absolutely terrifying that people think this issue should be put to a public referendum.

You criticise the fact that antibiotics are prescribed in end of life care when those very drugs can significantly improve the quality of life by reducing or eliminating pleuritic pain or the pain associated with UTI’s. Infection is a significant cause of delerium yet you dismiss attempts to treat and manage it?

And presumably your contempt for the safe and effective monitoring of blood sugars in order to identify hyperglycaemia and all of the distressing symptoms that can cause means that really, people at end of life shouldn’t be given steroids which often have an important role in pain control, management of nausea and vomiting and impact on reducing seizures, raised ICP and managing confusion and distress associated with primary and secondary brain cancers?

I think you have beautifully illustrated why the very last thing we need is a public referendum….

You’re not debating. You’re dismissing the clinical indications for antibiotics and steroids in end of life care. With no logical argument for doing so. That’s not debate.

The slippery slope begins right there.

I fully understand why this is the case but the irony of her being made to feel more comfortable as she slipped into a coma to begin the cruel dying process of withdrawing liquids and food for 2 weeks whilst being pumped of every drug possible to ensure she wasn’t aware of what her body was going through. Meanwhile we had bedside seats 24/7 to spectate over the entire horror show that unfolded, holding her hand the entire time until she finally passed.

Its a terrible feeling to be sat wishing your mother to die faster. We were with her until the very end but it all felt hopeless and needless because we were taking up vital space in a private room waiting for the inevitable to occur. From the moment her syringe driver was fitted the waiting game began - there was zero chance of recovery because her body was shutting down. There should be a point where a team of physicians assess the patient and say as per their predetermined wish we all agree the patient may be administered the medication to end their life.

Being able to take control of the way it all ends may even have therapeutic effects for patients diagnosed with hideous diseases and alleviate that feeling of utter hopelessness and fear of the unknown. I know I would want to be able to say ‘ok if X happens and the circumstances are this and that I would wish for end of life medication to be administered’.

I agree.

I’m so sorry to hear of your sisters horrendous ordeal.

It could be argued my mums ‘good death’ was probably 6 months long from the brain mets being diagnosed, the terrifying personality change and swirling feeling she felt she was losing her mind all whilst she carried around two nefrostomy drain bags attached to each of her kidneys on little metal stands whilst she hobbled in utter agony as her spine crumbled and she lost inches in height, had zero enjoyment of food with painful digestive problems and multiple life threatening infections.

Having a legal humane choice to potentially avoid a worsening end may have convinced her that she had suffered enough and that she could walk away from the fight on her terms.

We need to do better for those with incurable degenerative life ending terminal diseases that wreak pain and suffering for entire families and circles of friends who do not want to endure the suffering but also do not want to be complicit in murder as things stand in the eyes of the law now.

I'm not sure what else you want me to say. I disagree with you. I don't 'have my fingers in my ears' please try and show some kindness and respect when debating such an emotive subject.

Imo pain due to infection should be treated with opiates and anyone with weeks to live should not be having 4hrly blood sugars checked just because they are on steroids. GPs and their staff in particular need more training in end of life care.

You haven’t countered any of the information I’ve given you. Your response is a ‘la la la la’ fingers in your ears type response.

Both steroids and antibiotics have an important and significant role in improving QOL at end of life. You can dismiss it all you want. But your dismissal of appropriate symptom control very clearly demonstrates why people need to be protected from this bill.

I fully understand why this is the case but the irony of her being made to feel more comfortable as she slipped into a coma to begin the cruel dying process of withdrawing liquids and food for 2 weeks whilst being pumped of every drug possible to ensure she wasn’t aware of what her body was going through. Meanwhile we had bedside seats 24/7 to spectate over the entire horror show that unfolded, holding her hand the entire time until she finally passed.

Its a terrible feeling to be sat wishing your mother to die faster. We were with her until the very end but it all felt hopeless and needless because we were taking up vital space in a private room waiting for the inevitable to occur. From the moment her syringe driver was fitted the waiting game began - there was zero chance of recovery because her body was shutting down. There should be a point where a team of physicians assess the patient and say as per their predetermined wish we all agree the patient may be administered the medication to end their life.

Being able to take control of the way it all ends may even have therapeutic effects for patients diagnosed with hideous diseases and alleviate that feeling of utter hopelessness and fear of the unknown. I know I would want to be able to say ‘ok if X happens and the circumstances are this and that I would wish for end of life medication to be administered’.

I don’t expect assisted dying to be voted in. Government doesn’t really represent public opinion and the minority of people opposed are incredibly vocal. just because it’s a minority doesn’t make it wrong.

Even you agree that this should just be the beginning and that a slippery slope needs to happen. You say that you want the opportunity to die at a time of your choosing, well if this bill passes this isn’t going to include you if you end up with dementia.

I am absolutely for not extending life unnecessarily and I do believe that the “life at all costs” has multiple arguments against. But anyone can sign an advance directive to this effect so that is also worth looking into.

But the idea of holding down a terrified dementia patient to essentially put them down is barbaric. And that is what they do in some parts of Europe.

The Netherlands now allows assisted dying for couples who have had a long marriage and who have the wish to die together. But that has been proven to be rife with coercion by one or other party.

In Canada people with mental health conditions, disabilities, the homeless are recommended assisted dying instead of help.

How long do you think it will be before the PIP application process includes the question as to whether the person applying has considered assisted dying and if not, why not, and for the pip Assessor to refuse the application on the basis that assisted dying is available.

The reason why it’s the minority that are so vocal is because the minority can see where this is heading and don’t want it to.

The blunt truth is that the majority want the slippery slope. They want the bill to ultimately be extended to the disabled, the elderly, the mentally ill, basically for anyone who is suicidal at any time to be able to pop to the dr’s and have a doctor kill them so they don’t have to d it themselves, or anyone who feels they’re a burden to their family for whatever reason. And then it becomes a short step to it not being about assisted dying, but expected dying.

Please don't sneer and suggest people are too thick so a public referendum would be inappropriate. This is a highly emotive subject that I expect we all have experience of.

Distressing symptoms can be managed with pain control, not antibiotics. Patients should not be having fingers pricked to monitor blood sugars to tick a GP's box.

As I have said money and education needs throwing at GP services and of life care. Symptoms can be alleviated without unnecessary interventions like antibiotics that prolong the inevitable.

“Lets also not forget the avoidance or trauma for the loved ones who stay until the end and then have to live with the recurring nightmares and visions of what happens in those situations.”

This is precisely why the Bill must fail.

Can you imagine the pressure on the dying person to submit to the needle so their relatives won’t suffer?

Infection causes pain. They treat the infection to make the patient more comfortable.