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Assisted dying bill (TW assisted suicide discussion)

310 replies

Onand · 24/11/2024 13:30

I appreciate this is a divisive subject and a sensitive topic for many. Please avoid this thread if you find any discussion of suicide, death, trauma, terminal illness, cancer and faith triggering.

I’m curious to know how others are feeling about this subject, from what I can see there isn’t a lot of discussion, is this a MNHQ decision or an indifference from posters?

My opinion and views on this potential landmark decision are based on my horrifying experience of watching and waiting for my mum to pass from end stage cancer several years ago.

For over four years she fought advanced cancer, she took every treatment and trial offered to her. She endured major abdominal surgery, many blood transfusions, multiple rounds of chemo, lost her hair several times, her bones started to crumble causing excruciating back pain, severe abdominal swelling, double nephrostomy as her kidneys failed, multiple lesions on her brain that caused debilitating headaches and personality changes, her teeth and bones were decaying due to a calcium disorder, various hospital stays for infections, the list goes on.

Truly the most hideous nightmare cancer ‘journey’ anyone could ever imagine, it always felt like one step forward and two backwards and yet she carried on without much fuss or sign of fear to protect the family and herself from the true horrors of suffering.

She never wanted to die and so she never gave up or gave in- that was until the last few weeks of her life when she had no choice. The immense damage and toll cancer had done to her physical body was too much to survive any longer so the last infection she had took her consciousness and so began the final horrifying curveball that cancer has up its evil sleeve, this one is for the loved ones though, because now you have to wait and watch for the end to come. Anyone who has endured this knows exactly what I am talking about, a horror that truly brings home the meaning of hell of earth.

If the assisted dying bill was around whilst my mum was alive I know she would have never entertained an early death whilst she was still in control and able to fight, but I do know that her love for the family would have also meant she would never have wanted us to endure that final two weeks of watching and waiting for her body to shut down if it could have been avoided and she was able to specify what was to happen at the end. There was no possibility of her ever getting better or a miraculous recovery, death was very inevitable and a certainty but we still had to sit and watch, doing oral care and leaving the room as they checked for bed sores and did secretion suction. The only thing I could do to protect and help her was the make sure she was undoubtedly unaware of what was happening as she feared death and leaving us behind- the thought of her being remotely aware meant we were constantly asking the nurses for more and more sedation.

If this bill gives patients the choice to avoid the hideously evil ending of a terminal illness and the following ptsd that impacts the loved ones left behind then it is an opportunity I strongly agree with. Watching a loved one die an agonising death is soul destroying and something I hope no one has to ever endure if said loved one could choose to avoid.

How do others feel?

OP posts:
Onand · 26/11/2024 00:06

user942557 · 25/11/2024 23:05

@Onand And where is the line drawn?

When the patient is deemed a potential murder victim in the eyes of the medical professional who is overseeing the death if they suspect coercion or pressure or the patient doesn’t meet the criteria of having an incurable diagnosis where death isn’t reasonably expected within 6 months.

OP posts:
user942557 · 25/11/2024 23:05

@Onand And where is the line drawn?

TammyJones · 25/11/2024 22:54

Onand · 25/11/2024 12:26

I’m pleased your DM passed so peacefully, both you and her were spared a truly hideous experience and I’m sorry for your loss.

Do you reasonably think that relative of your friend would commit murder for their inheritance? There’s no legal framework for them to abuse now so perhaps you should inform social services if you have a gut feeling that they’re just waiting?

@Onand
good question
theyre not ever so bright …. But are definitely hanging around for the money.
my friend has the will all sorted and social are aware … but the elderly person passes all the mental capacity tests so not much anyone can do, except monitor the situation.

Alibababandthe40sheets · 25/11/2024 21:56

CrazyAndSagittarius · 25/11/2024 21:40

My Nan was recently in a care home. It cost thousands of pounds every month and every person that was in there seemed like they were just being kept alive until they weren't. The vast majority had zero quality of life. The whole thing was incredibly depressing and it seemed completely pointless and cruel. I was shocked at how depressing it was and hadn't expected that at all. This was a "nice" care home as well. Some of the others my mum viewed were significantly worse. The staff were caring and the place was clean etc but it didn't matter, it still felt like we were just keeping people slive with no quality of life for nothing. When I first visited I said two things to my husband, never put me in a care home, if i have deteriorated that much that I need FT care, just take me out, you have my permission. The other thing I said, was my god you wouldn't treat an animal like that. If I went to the vet and said I wanted to keep my pet alive when it had dementia, or couldn't eat, or wash itself, or walk, or engage properly with anyone, they would tell me off for being cruel and they'd be right. Why we feel life is always sacrosanct in humans when they is little to no quality of life or that person has gone due to dementia, I have absolutely no idea. Its not about a "good death", its about not prolonging life when for all intents and purposes that person is gone already.

I agree @CrazyAndSagittarius it is taboo to think that sometimes death is preferable to endless suffering in service of the idea of the sanctity of life. I see the same at the other end of life in abortion debate. I am sometimes uncomfortable with the compromise that is abortion but it is far more preferable than life of a foetus at all cost and I feel the same about assisted dying. It makes me very uncomfortable and there are many many good arguments against assisted suicide but there are too many lived experiences pointing to a need for assisted suicide than to ban it out of hand.

anchorage81 · 25/11/2024 21:53

CrazyAndSagittarius · 25/11/2024 21:40

My Nan was recently in a care home. It cost thousands of pounds every month and every person that was in there seemed like they were just being kept alive until they weren't. The vast majority had zero quality of life. The whole thing was incredibly depressing and it seemed completely pointless and cruel. I was shocked at how depressing it was and hadn't expected that at all. This was a "nice" care home as well. Some of the others my mum viewed were significantly worse. The staff were caring and the place was clean etc but it didn't matter, it still felt like we were just keeping people slive with no quality of life for nothing. When I first visited I said two things to my husband, never put me in a care home, if i have deteriorated that much that I need FT care, just take me out, you have my permission. The other thing I said, was my god you wouldn't treat an animal like that. If I went to the vet and said I wanted to keep my pet alive when it had dementia, or couldn't eat, or wash itself, or walk, or engage properly with anyone, they would tell me off for being cruel and they'd be right. Why we feel life is always sacrosanct in humans when they is little to no quality of life or that person has gone due to dementia, I have absolutely no idea. Its not about a "good death", its about not prolonging life when for all intents and purposes that person is gone already.

Why we feel life is always sacrosanct in humans when they is little to no quality of life or that person has gone due to dementia, I have absolutely no idea. Its not about a "good death", its about not prolonging life when for all intents and purposes that person is gone already.

This is what I think as well. Everyone dies. Western culture is so obsessed with prolonging life at all costs, regardless of the quality of life.

CrazyAndSagittarius · 25/11/2024 21:40

Girliefriendlikespuppies · 24/11/2024 13:48

I'm completely against it.

I'm a nurse abs the repercussions if this passes terrify me tbh.

It is possible to have a good death without the need for suicide/assisted dying.

Given how difficult it is to ascertain if a patient has full mental capacity now I have no idea how they can fully safeguard this for society's most vulnerable people.

Coercion, guilt and pressure undoubtedly will be used to make people feel they have to die.

My Nan was recently in a care home. It cost thousands of pounds every month and every person that was in there seemed like they were just being kept alive until they weren't. The vast majority had zero quality of life. The whole thing was incredibly depressing and it seemed completely pointless and cruel. I was shocked at how depressing it was and hadn't expected that at all. This was a "nice" care home as well. Some of the others my mum viewed were significantly worse. The staff were caring and the place was clean etc but it didn't matter, it still felt like we were just keeping people slive with no quality of life for nothing. When I first visited I said two things to my husband, never put me in a care home, if i have deteriorated that much that I need FT care, just take me out, you have my permission. The other thing I said, was my god you wouldn't treat an animal like that. If I went to the vet and said I wanted to keep my pet alive when it had dementia, or couldn't eat, or wash itself, or walk, or engage properly with anyone, they would tell me off for being cruel and they'd be right. Why we feel life is always sacrosanct in humans when they is little to no quality of life or that person has gone due to dementia, I have absolutely no idea. Its not about a "good death", its about not prolonging life when for all intents and purposes that person is gone already.

Onand · 25/11/2024 21:33

user942557 · 25/11/2024 18:24

@Onand What's the medical reasons for assisted dying? You didn't respond earlier.

Apologies for missing your question. I think the medical reasons for assisted dying are clear when you read the proposed bill. You can read it at the bottom of page 5 onwards.

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/cbill/59-01/0012/240012.pdf

OP posts:
Puzzledandpissedoff · 25/11/2024 20:21

A few posters have mentioned religion. I've read a lot of threads on this topic over the past couple of years and I cannot remember reading a single post on any of them arguing against assisted dying for religious reasons

The lack of mention in posts doesn't mean that the debate's not attracting attention among churches,@PencilsInSpace, and with the influence these people enjoy I'd be highly surprised if this doesn't inform some of the objections

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/11/24/assisted-dying-bill-religious-leaders-letter-duty-to-die/

user942557 · 25/11/2024 18:24

@Onand What's the medical reasons for assisted dying? You didn't respond earlier.

snarkygal · 25/11/2024 17:59

Yes truly horrible. I’ve spoken to quite a few friends who’ve supported middle aged friends or partners with terminal cancer and the story is pretty similar for us all.

Onand · 25/11/2024 17:48

snarkygal · 25/11/2024 17:34

My friend in her thirties died a truly hideous death in a lot of pain. Cancer in her bones, her eyes, ascites, jaundice, skeletal. She took her last breath screaming, her tongue poking out. She was all yellow and looked like a tiny little bird. She had a palliative care team and all the drugs but a lot of cancers are incredibly painful. I didn’t realise how bad dying naturally could be until I witnessed it at close range. She’d run out of options months before but her body kept going as she had been young and fit.

I had assumed before then that cancer was a slow fade out but now I know better. It’s brutal.

Absolutely vile. That poor woman. Truly makes you wonder why anyone would think that is a viable alternative to being able to go before it takes you in such horrendous circumstances.

Sitting witnessing such a cruel twisted death makes you realise what the phrase Hell on Earth actually means.

OP posts:
ScrollingLeaves · 25/11/2024 17:47

snarkygal · 25/11/2024 17:34

My friend in her thirties died a truly hideous death in a lot of pain. Cancer in her bones, her eyes, ascites, jaundice, skeletal. She took her last breath screaming, her tongue poking out. She was all yellow and looked like a tiny little bird. She had a palliative care team and all the drugs but a lot of cancers are incredibly painful. I didn’t realise how bad dying naturally could be until I witnessed it at close range. She’d run out of options months before but her body kept going as she had been young and fit.

I had assumed before then that cancer was a slow fade out but now I know better. It’s brutal.

I don’t know how, in extreme circumstances like this, doctors don’t keep giving morphine to stop the pain, even if that leads to death.
Death would not have been the motive, just a secondary consequence.

Your poor friend. The cruelty is unbelievable.

snarkygal · 25/11/2024 17:34

My friend in her thirties died a truly hideous death in a lot of pain. Cancer in her bones, her eyes, ascites, jaundice, skeletal. She took her last breath screaming, her tongue poking out. She was all yellow and looked like a tiny little bird. She had a palliative care team and all the drugs but a lot of cancers are incredibly painful. I didn’t realise how bad dying naturally could be until I witnessed it at close range. She’d run out of options months before but her body kept going as she had been young and fit.

I had assumed before then that cancer was a slow fade out but now I know better. It’s brutal.

AlteredStater · 25/11/2024 17:27

ThisAquaCrow · 25/11/2024 15:03

It’s based on ‘nothing’. Another example of ill thought out and rushed documentation dressed up as a legal process.

Yes it does look that way. Can't find any reasoning for it in the Bill document online. The only other mention of time in that document is the 12 months requirement of being a resident of England/Wales prior to requesting assisted dying.

Onand · 25/11/2024 17:03

PencilsInSpace · 25/11/2024 16:41

A few posters have mentioned religion. I've read a lot of threads on this topic over the past couple of years and I cannot remember reading a single post on any of them arguing against assisted dying for religious reasons.

It might be handy for those in favour of the bill to be able to dismiss objections as religious but it's a straw man.

The population data in the Dignity in Dying survey would suggest religion is not nearly such a huge factor as some people think.

https://yonderconsulting.com/poll/dignity-in-dying/

I sincerely hope this is the case but I shall remain sceptical for now and assume some of those with arguments against may be rooted in theological beliefs.

I also feel there is a slight naivety for some of those against, the big bad state coming to euthanise all those who don’t measure up or thinking there’s going to be queues outside GP surgeries across the country with unsuspecting grannies in wheelchairs and the money hungry relatives demanding they be ‘set free from their ailments’.

Too many people need this bill to pass to allow them a dignified choice on their terms of how they leave this planet, I wholeheartedly wish no one ever goes through the hideously vile experience so many of us have been through because it gives you a perspective you cannot fathom.

OP posts:
PencilsInSpace · 25/11/2024 16:41

A few posters have mentioned religion. I've read a lot of threads on this topic over the past couple of years and I cannot remember reading a single post on any of them arguing against assisted dying for religious reasons.

It might be handy for those in favour of the bill to be able to dismiss objections as religious but it's a straw man.

The population data in the Dignity in Dying survey would suggest religion is not nearly such a huge factor as some people think.

https://yonderconsulting.com/poll/dignity-in-dying/

Rinoachicken · 25/11/2024 16:36

Ah thanks @PencilsInSpace

PencilsInSpace · 25/11/2024 16:28

That's not the current bill @Rinoachicken it's about a different bill from 2021.

The one that's going through at the moment is here:

https://bills.parliament.uk/bills/3774

Rinoachicken · 25/11/2024 16:15

I found this on the Henry 8th clause in the bill: (it’s a government page). I just googled ‘assisted dying bill UK Henry clause’ and it came up top on a .gov page

Its specifically mentioned at number 9 but I think the whole page is about it but it is very legal wording and I am struggling to make much sense of it tbh.

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld5802/ldselect/lddelreg/83/8303.htm

Onand · 25/11/2024 15:53

Words · 25/11/2024 15:35

@Onand horrific. Am so sorry. I do hope you words have made some people think. Think hard. Flowers

Thank you.

I do hope this thread is making people think because a few years ago I had no idea what dying from cancer really looked like and that was with great care and constant hospital supervision plus a devoted family who were with her the whole time.

To think how it can be worse gives me chills. It needs to change.

OP posts:
anchorage81 · 25/11/2024 15:36

JemimaTiggywinkles · 25/11/2024 15:17

So given our privileged yet still diabolically evil experience, how many other people receive poor palliative care every day and have even more traumatic deaths who could be helped by assisted dying during those final weeks?

I still don't understand why the proposed solution is to kill people a few weeks or months before natural death rather than provide proper palliative care.

Because there isn't palliative care that can prevent all suffering.

Words · 25/11/2024 15:35

@Onand horrific. Am so sorry. I do hope you words have made some people think. Think hard. Flowers

Onand · 25/11/2024 15:31

JemimaTiggywinkles · 25/11/2024 15:17

So given our privileged yet still diabolically evil experience, how many other people receive poor palliative care every day and have even more traumatic deaths who could be helped by assisted dying during those final weeks?

I still don't understand why the proposed solution is to kill people a few weeks or months before natural death rather than provide proper palliative care.

The first paragraph from that point you quoted explains that the palliative care my mum had was proper and excellent.

But excellent palliative care did not cancel out the fact we sat at her bedside holding her hand as her body started to shut down.

Excellent palliative care did not stop her from having seizures and groaning despite pain relief and every other conceivable concoction we could have going through her syringe driver.

Excellent palliative care still meant we saw her eyes sink into her face, her skin become cold and mottled, her bodily functions emptying her bowels, her breathing become awfully erratic

Excellent palliative care didn’t stop her secretions from massing on her chest causing her to violently cough making her wake like something from a zombie film and then have to have suction to remove the mucus.

Excellent palliative care is great when your body agrees to a kind gentle death- if that is not the case then your loved ones must sit and watch the horror unfold before them whilst sipping on tea and biscuits and sleeping on a camp bed.

OP posts:
Words · 25/11/2024 15:28

@Onand . It is of course an end stage terminal illness as savage as cancer.

It's just that one of the delightful aspects of dementia is that it goes on and on and on, especially if you lived a previously healthy life or have long lived genes. ( like me, shoot me now.)

And the ultimate delightful twist is there is no way out. If you have lost capacity, or even have fluctuating capacity, no medic will sanction assisted dying.

Gloriia · 25/11/2024 15:26

ThisAquaCrow · 25/11/2024 15:06

Pleuritic/neuropathic pain caused by infection is opioid responsive? Interested in your evidence base for that?

Oh please stop. Pain management is indeed complex but there are many options.

The point is giving someone antibiotics in their final weeks and days is absolutely futile and can exacerbate distressing GI symptoms.

Have you ever taken ABs and had an upset stomach/the runs? Now imagine that whilst bed bound, distressed and dying. Great you may clear up a chest infection but now they have diarrhoea and a whole host of new problems.