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Assisted dying bill (TW assisted suicide discussion)

310 replies

Onand · 24/11/2024 13:30

I appreciate this is a divisive subject and a sensitive topic for many. Please avoid this thread if you find any discussion of suicide, death, trauma, terminal illness, cancer and faith triggering.

I’m curious to know how others are feeling about this subject, from what I can see there isn’t a lot of discussion, is this a MNHQ decision or an indifference from posters?

My opinion and views on this potential landmark decision are based on my horrifying experience of watching and waiting for my mum to pass from end stage cancer several years ago.

For over four years she fought advanced cancer, she took every treatment and trial offered to her. She endured major abdominal surgery, many blood transfusions, multiple rounds of chemo, lost her hair several times, her bones started to crumble causing excruciating back pain, severe abdominal swelling, double nephrostomy as her kidneys failed, multiple lesions on her brain that caused debilitating headaches and personality changes, her teeth and bones were decaying due to a calcium disorder, various hospital stays for infections, the list goes on.

Truly the most hideous nightmare cancer ‘journey’ anyone could ever imagine, it always felt like one step forward and two backwards and yet she carried on without much fuss or sign of fear to protect the family and herself from the true horrors of suffering.

She never wanted to die and so she never gave up or gave in- that was until the last few weeks of her life when she had no choice. The immense damage and toll cancer had done to her physical body was too much to survive any longer so the last infection she had took her consciousness and so began the final horrifying curveball that cancer has up its evil sleeve, this one is for the loved ones though, because now you have to wait and watch for the end to come. Anyone who has endured this knows exactly what I am talking about, a horror that truly brings home the meaning of hell of earth.

If the assisted dying bill was around whilst my mum was alive I know she would have never entertained an early death whilst she was still in control and able to fight, but I do know that her love for the family would have also meant she would never have wanted us to endure that final two weeks of watching and waiting for her body to shut down if it could have been avoided and she was able to specify what was to happen at the end. There was no possibility of her ever getting better or a miraculous recovery, death was very inevitable and a certainty but we still had to sit and watch, doing oral care and leaving the room as they checked for bed sores and did secretion suction. The only thing I could do to protect and help her was the make sure she was undoubtedly unaware of what was happening as she feared death and leaving us behind- the thought of her being remotely aware meant we were constantly asking the nurses for more and more sedation.

If this bill gives patients the choice to avoid the hideously evil ending of a terminal illness and the following ptsd that impacts the loved ones left behind then it is an opportunity I strongly agree with. Watching a loved one die an agonising death is soul destroying and something I hope no one has to ever endure if said loved one could choose to avoid.

How do others feel?

OP posts:
VioletSpeedwell · 29/11/2024 16:48

Thank you, Kim Leadbeater ♡

AnnaFrith · 29/11/2024 16:48

anyolddinosaur · 24/11/2024 15:44

This has been discussed extensively on mumsnet previously and the opponents will try to talk it to death. Yes I can see why they think like that but no safeguards would ever satisfy them. It's a cruel point of view that wants to see people suffer.

Most people (73% according to yougov) support it and apparently it's higher in those who have watched a parent die recently.

I've watched a number of people die in situations where a vet would put an animal to sleep without hesitation.

I dont want to see any coercion, I do think the safeguards need to be carefully drafted. I'm eternally grateful to the doctor who asked if we wanted one cancer sufferer (who was by then incapable of expressing a view themself) to have adequate pain relief even if it would shorten their life. Nowadays some busybody opposed to assisted dying would kick up a stink and he would be more reluctant to ask.

Giving large doses of painkillers in order to relieve pain, even if it hastens death, is not 'assisted dying' and is already legal, and what should already be happening if necessary for anyone who is is dying in pain.

Errors · 29/11/2024 16:09

user942557 · 29/11/2024 09:52

@Errors It's implied. Several posters picked up on it.

It really wasn’t implied at all.
I get really fed up of seeing people on here putting words into other people’s mouths. It’s like there is no room for nuance.

cardibach · 29/11/2024 15:34

midgetastic · 29/11/2024 14:58

Reason? That we should let people kill themselves rather than finance decent end of life care ? You call that Reason? I call that inhumane

And anyone who thinks the safeguards are sufficient needs to look around at what happens elsewhere

Disabled , elderly , depressed - the tight fisted capitalists are coming for you next

The last sentence is a bit hysterical. Nobody is coming for anyone.
Ikd let people decide when they had had enough of pain and sickness. Not every condition can be made pain free, however good the end of life care. I call it inhumane to force someone to suffer if they have made a rational decision they’ve had enough.

bestcatlife · 29/11/2024 15:32

Agree with you @Dotjones it should be available to whoever wants it. This life is hard, for many people, particularly in this country where healthcare is a mess and the expense of living, housing crisis.. I could go on.
There are worse things than death.
I'm pleased the bill has passed. I'm not sure how this will be implemented in practice and this will probably take many years.

Words · 29/11/2024 15:27

Exactly @cardibach

cardibach · 29/11/2024 15:22

Womblewife · 24/11/2024 13:41

I agree with it - but I think there should be a referendum

I think this would be the absolute worst option. Look at the Brexit referendum -so many people voting with no idea what it was really about. This sort of topic needs reasoned, expert discussion to put in necessary safeguards, which it will get as part of the parliamentary process. It doesn’t need everyone to be in favour, because anyone who doesn’t like the idea just doesn’t need to have an assisted death themselves.

Words · 29/11/2024 15:18

It is not a binary choice.

Indeed, the public money saved on ministering to me in my last six months of agony could be well spent on financing better palliative care for those who do, for whatever reason, want to go on to the bitter end.

I do not want my friends or family to witness that. It is a horrific and traumatic and lifelong burden - yes, THAT word, burden, to place on anyone. I disagree that this is a male/female issue also. Why would I NOT want to spare them that?

And if my decision means my family access their inheritance a few months sooner, and even save a few thousand on private nursing care that they can maybe then spend on a relaxing holiday to recuperate, then that is fine by me too.

midgetastic · 29/11/2024 14:58

Reason? That we should let people kill themselves rather than finance decent end of life care ? You call that Reason? I call that inhumane

And anyone who thinks the safeguards are sufficient needs to look around at what happens elsewhere

Disabled , elderly , depressed - the tight fisted capitalists are coming for you next

Patienceinshortsupply · 29/11/2024 14:54

Same. I am so thrilled that reason prevailed here against hysteria. Society cannot be run around those who are likely to abuse/break the law.

Words · 29/11/2024 14:51

Reason has prevailed. Thank goodness. I was so worried it wouldn't.

Gloriia · 29/11/2024 11:12

ByMerryKoala · 29/11/2024 11:00

I think it's a bit terrifying reading how Leadbeater is unconcerned that people will opt to die because they are burden, in fact, supports the idea that this is a reasonable claim to request assisted dying.

Who do we think that would be? I wonder who's socialised from birth to be quiet and not be a burden? And I wonder why people are unconcerned that women account for the lion's share of assisted dying requests?

It's awful and I hope the bill doesn't pass today.

Edited

Yes it'll be women who opt for it to save their family from having to suffer seeing them suffer.

It's just awful I hate to think that if it passes people will feel under any kind of obligation to cut it all short for their family's sake.

We need to understand that dying and suffering are of course very, very difficult but it is part of life. Doing it quicker with the added stress of meetings, doctors, judges, surely will just add to stress for everyone in the last 6months.

ByMerryKoala · 29/11/2024 11:00

I think it's a bit terrifying reading how Leadbeater is unconcerned that people will opt to die because they are burden, in fact, supports the idea that this is a reasonable claim to request assisted dying.

Who do we think that would be? I wonder who's socialised from birth to be quiet and not be a burden? And I wonder why people are unconcerned that women account for the lion's share of assisted dying requests?

It's awful and I hope the bill doesn't pass today.

VickyEadieofThigh · 29/11/2024 10:53

Gloriia · 29/11/2024 10:23

I think the pp was being facetious. Of course it matters.

I hope you're right - but I've seen other posts on MN making clear they think elderly people are costly and expendable.

Gloriia · 29/11/2024 10:23

VickyEadieofThigh · 29/11/2024 10:14

This comment is why I'm against it. "Does it matter..."

Yes, it DOES.

I think the pp was being facetious. Of course it matters.

VickyEadieofThigh · 29/11/2024 10:14

ThisAquaCrow · 26/11/2024 05:50

Won’t ever happen. And even if it does, does it really matter? A few dozen or hundred’s of elderly or disabled dead people being coerced isn’t that big a deal surely? Have you SEEN how much a care home costs these days?

This comment is why I'm against it. "Does it matter..."

Yes, it DOES.

VickyEadieofThigh · 29/11/2024 10:12

Patienceinshortsupply · 27/11/2024 21:25

I've tried to avoid the discussion in truth, because having watched my Dad die a horrific (and I genuinely mean horrific) death from liver cancer, I think that those who haven't seen someone die this way hasn't got a fucking clue. He had a great palliative team, but the reality is that when your organs start failing especially the liver, you can be injected with all sorts but it does nothing. Palliative care is like sticking a plaster over a broken leg.

The hand wringing about safeguarding and poor little old ladies being bullied into it is frankly ignorant and insulting to those with terminal illnesses. Everyone with a vote on this needs to spend a day in a hospice and see the reality of a cancer death before making their opinion.

I saw my mother die of cancer. I am against this bill because it's badly written, because a private member's bill doesn't allow nearly enough time for debate and because I've seen what's happened in other countries - THEY had "safeguards" and limits in their original bills, but the remit has been widened now to include (for example) "elderly people who feel their lives are complete".

Lobby groups have already said they will work to have any bill passed in the UK to be widened.

user942557 · 29/11/2024 09:52

@Errors It's implied. Several posters picked up on it.

Dotjones · 29/11/2024 09:51

I'm completely in favour of assisted suicide and think it should be much more accessible. It shouldn't be restricted to people with terminal illnesses who are in pain, it should be available to anyone who wants it. There are lots of us who struggle with life who wouldn't qualify for euthenasia under the terms being discussed at the moment.

I agree there should be proper checks in place and people should have to receive counselling for instance to ensure that they actually want to do it and are doing it of their own free will. But if that is the case, there should be no restrictions on eligibility.

Suicide under the present system can be deeply unpleasant - painful, drawn out and unreliable for the person killing themselves, and harrowing for people who witness the act or the aftermath.

The choice isn't between assisted suicide and no suicide, it's between suicide in a safe, controlled environment and suicide in more hazardous circumstances.

These are my opinions and I accept others are entitled to alternative views.

Errors · 29/11/2024 09:49

user942557 · 29/11/2024 08:48

And the way you think your life is worth more than a "little old lady" speaks volumes, it's disgusting.

Thank goodness you're not making the decision.

Except she didn’t say that did she…

Gloriia · 29/11/2024 09:23

Patienceinshortsupply · 27/11/2024 21:25

I've tried to avoid the discussion in truth, because having watched my Dad die a horrific (and I genuinely mean horrific) death from liver cancer, I think that those who haven't seen someone die this way hasn't got a fucking clue. He had a great palliative team, but the reality is that when your organs start failing especially the liver, you can be injected with all sorts but it does nothing. Palliative care is like sticking a plaster over a broken leg.

The hand wringing about safeguarding and poor little old ladies being bullied into it is frankly ignorant and insulting to those with terminal illnesses. Everyone with a vote on this needs to spend a day in a hospice and see the reality of a cancer death before making their opinion.

Dying is of course unpleasant both for the patient and the relatives. But so many things cause protracted suffering and we can't and shouldn't euthanise. I've seen people suffer horribly from dementia, MS, MND, paralysis, strokes (all not included in this bill but horrific nonetheless), and yes cancer. The answer is not to legalise suicide in a few select cases but to provide adequate end of life care nationwide.

I know and understand that the op's dm had excellent palliative care and still suffered but many people do no get good end of life care and that needs to change.

user942557 · 29/11/2024 08:48

Patienceinshortsupply · 27/11/2024 21:25

I've tried to avoid the discussion in truth, because having watched my Dad die a horrific (and I genuinely mean horrific) death from liver cancer, I think that those who haven't seen someone die this way hasn't got a fucking clue. He had a great palliative team, but the reality is that when your organs start failing especially the liver, you can be injected with all sorts but it does nothing. Palliative care is like sticking a plaster over a broken leg.

The hand wringing about safeguarding and poor little old ladies being bullied into it is frankly ignorant and insulting to those with terminal illnesses. Everyone with a vote on this needs to spend a day in a hospice and see the reality of a cancer death before making their opinion.

And the way you think your life is worth more than a "little old lady" speaks volumes, it's disgusting.

Thank goodness you're not making the decision.

user942557 · 29/11/2024 08:44

Patienceinshortsupply · 27/11/2024 21:25

I've tried to avoid the discussion in truth, because having watched my Dad die a horrific (and I genuinely mean horrific) death from liver cancer, I think that those who haven't seen someone die this way hasn't got a fucking clue. He had a great palliative team, but the reality is that when your organs start failing especially the liver, you can be injected with all sorts but it does nothing. Palliative care is like sticking a plaster over a broken leg.

The hand wringing about safeguarding and poor little old ladies being bullied into it is frankly ignorant and insulting to those with terminal illnesses. Everyone with a vote on this needs to spend a day in a hospice and see the reality of a cancer death before making their opinion.

No one needs to experience it to have an opinion on it.

Do midwives need to give birth to assist a pregnant woman?

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 27/11/2024 22:47

@Stillplodding
I really did not expect a response essentially saying a terminally ill pensioner is less of a person/ has less of a right to life/autonomy than an 18w fetus while simultaneously saying you are pro choice.

A fetus isn’t a person. A fetus has no human rights. By putting a fetus above an 80yr old terminally ill person you are dehumanising the aged and terminally ill.

You are not even acknowledging that the “6 months to live” is problematic as this cannot be accurately estimated. It’s not unheard of for people to be told this abd live for years more. You are not even acknowledging that terminally ill people are not always in pain and misery 24/7. You may be horrified at the QoL of the terminally ill and/or aged, but most of them make the most of the time they have left and would not want someone to dismiss it being cut short prematurely by murder as lower stakes than an abortion of a fetus.

Stillplodding · 27/11/2024 22:27

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 27/11/2024 21:15

The stakes are much higher, if you are coerced into an abortion, your life goes on. If you are coerced into death, your life is over.

Some would say the consequence of coercion is therefore too high to legalise assisted dying.

Are the stakes higher?

These proposals are limited (from what I understand), to those who have a terminal illness, are suffering greatly and less than 6m to live.

It’s not like it is going to be a free for all, with families pressurising otherwise perfectly healthy, happy and active 60 year olds for an inheritance.

I am personally very pro choice, but I can see an argument that actually the stakes are higher for a later term say 18w abortion of a healthy foetus than an 80year old with a painful, distressing terminal illness. In the first instance there is a chance of a healthy, happy and productive future open to all sorts of possibilities. In the other there is misery, pain and the outcome is guaranteed to be the same within months anyway.