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Assisted dying bill (TW assisted suicide discussion)

310 replies

Onand · 24/11/2024 13:30

I appreciate this is a divisive subject and a sensitive topic for many. Please avoid this thread if you find any discussion of suicide, death, trauma, terminal illness, cancer and faith triggering.

I’m curious to know how others are feeling about this subject, from what I can see there isn’t a lot of discussion, is this a MNHQ decision or an indifference from posters?

My opinion and views on this potential landmark decision are based on my horrifying experience of watching and waiting for my mum to pass from end stage cancer several years ago.

For over four years she fought advanced cancer, she took every treatment and trial offered to her. She endured major abdominal surgery, many blood transfusions, multiple rounds of chemo, lost her hair several times, her bones started to crumble causing excruciating back pain, severe abdominal swelling, double nephrostomy as her kidneys failed, multiple lesions on her brain that caused debilitating headaches and personality changes, her teeth and bones were decaying due to a calcium disorder, various hospital stays for infections, the list goes on.

Truly the most hideous nightmare cancer ‘journey’ anyone could ever imagine, it always felt like one step forward and two backwards and yet she carried on without much fuss or sign of fear to protect the family and herself from the true horrors of suffering.

She never wanted to die and so she never gave up or gave in- that was until the last few weeks of her life when she had no choice. The immense damage and toll cancer had done to her physical body was too much to survive any longer so the last infection she had took her consciousness and so began the final horrifying curveball that cancer has up its evil sleeve, this one is for the loved ones though, because now you have to wait and watch for the end to come. Anyone who has endured this knows exactly what I am talking about, a horror that truly brings home the meaning of hell of earth.

If the assisted dying bill was around whilst my mum was alive I know she would have never entertained an early death whilst she was still in control and able to fight, but I do know that her love for the family would have also meant she would never have wanted us to endure that final two weeks of watching and waiting for her body to shut down if it could have been avoided and she was able to specify what was to happen at the end. There was no possibility of her ever getting better or a miraculous recovery, death was very inevitable and a certainty but we still had to sit and watch, doing oral care and leaving the room as they checked for bed sores and did secretion suction. The only thing I could do to protect and help her was the make sure she was undoubtedly unaware of what was happening as she feared death and leaving us behind- the thought of her being remotely aware meant we were constantly asking the nurses for more and more sedation.

If this bill gives patients the choice to avoid the hideously evil ending of a terminal illness and the following ptsd that impacts the loved ones left behind then it is an opportunity I strongly agree with. Watching a loved one die an agonising death is soul destroying and something I hope no one has to ever endure if said loved one could choose to avoid.

How do others feel?

OP posts:
ToWhitToWhoo · 29/11/2024 18:51

Gloriia · 29/11/2024 18:21

'I once had a conversation with a friend who told me that, if I tried to kill myself or refused food and drink if my life became intolerable due to extreme pain (not always possible to palliate completely) or a condition like locked-in syndrome or MND, she would come along and physically prevent me from doing so. I shocked her by telling her that if she did, and I was still physically capable of killing, I would kill her in self-defence. Whereas if she ever tried to murder me, I would just call the police. I fear being forced to live under intolerable conditions more than I fear being murdered.'

Neither MND nor locked in syndrome would be illnesses eligible. You demonstrate exactly why people have reservations about this bill. Terminally ill and 6 months to live at the moment but people are already getting mixed up and including disabilities in their rationalising.

Unfortunately I would still need to kill myself (or go to Dignitas) or refuse food and drink under those circumstances; and in the case of MND, it would probably mean dying sooner than necessary, as I would kill myself/ go to Dignitas while I still could.

I was giving it as an example of how people can try to coerce one into surviving, as well as in the other direction.Not because the bill deals with all such eventualities.

But at least this bill means that I could choose assisted dying under SOME intolerable circumstances. And resist SOME forms of coercion.

And if palliative care is inadequate, or governments take a 'let the bodies pile high' attitude to vulnerable people, it will not be because some people choose assisted dying for themselves. It will be because not enough people are prepared to pay the taxes, (or do without other services) to enable adequate funding for people most in need of healthcare and social care. The increasingly common division of people into 'net contributors' and the rest has a lot more baleful influence in these matters than the possibility of assisted dying.

WinterBones · 29/11/2024 18:41

Puzzledandpissedoff · 29/11/2024 18:30

Proper investment in palliative care with relief of pain and unpleasant symptoms should be available to all

I imagine we could all agree on that as an ideal, @Lockupyourbiscuits, but in reality what are the chances when - as has happened elsewhere - suicide can be offered instead?

People are already getting mixed up and including disabilities in their rationalising

Edited to add yes, @Gloriia, and it's but a small step from thinking they're included to "Well, why shouldn't they be?"

Edited

probably because people can't talk about assisted dying without looking for excuses to wipe disabled people out.

We're seen as less than human.

All i will say is i'm sick of Liz Carr thinking she speaks for all of us with disabilities and being trotted out by the media to parrot the dehumanisation of us as thinking its a slippery slope to murder us all.

user942557 · 29/11/2024 18:37

Gloriia · 29/11/2024 18:21

'I once had a conversation with a friend who told me that, if I tried to kill myself or refused food and drink if my life became intolerable due to extreme pain (not always possible to palliate completely) or a condition like locked-in syndrome or MND, she would come along and physically prevent me from doing so. I shocked her by telling her that if she did, and I was still physically capable of killing, I would kill her in self-defence. Whereas if she ever tried to murder me, I would just call the police. I fear being forced to live under intolerable conditions more than I fear being murdered.'

Neither MND nor locked in syndrome would be illnesses eligible. You demonstrate exactly why people have reservations about this bill. Terminally ill and 6 months to live at the moment but people are already getting mixed up and including disabilities in their rationalising.

YET

Puzzledandpissedoff · 29/11/2024 18:30

Proper investment in palliative care with relief of pain and unpleasant symptoms should be available to all

I imagine we could all agree on that as an ideal, @Lockupyourbiscuits, but in reality what are the chances when - as has happened elsewhere - suicide can be offered instead?

People are already getting mixed up and including disabilities in their rationalising

Edited to add yes, @Gloriia, and it's but a small step from thinking they're included to "Well, why shouldn't they be?"

Gloriia · 29/11/2024 18:21

'I once had a conversation with a friend who told me that, if I tried to kill myself or refused food and drink if my life became intolerable due to extreme pain (not always possible to palliate completely) or a condition like locked-in syndrome or MND, she would come along and physically prevent me from doing so. I shocked her by telling her that if she did, and I was still physically capable of killing, I would kill her in self-defence. Whereas if she ever tried to murder me, I would just call the police. I fear being forced to live under intolerable conditions more than I fear being murdered.'

Neither MND nor locked in syndrome would be illnesses eligible. You demonstrate exactly why people have reservations about this bill. Terminally ill and 6 months to live at the moment but people are already getting mixed up and including disabilities in their rationalising.

user942557 · 29/11/2024 18:18

SuperfluousHen · 29/11/2024 16:59

Awful day.
Just awful. 😞

I'm very upset and frightened too. I hear you, Hen.

Errors · 29/11/2024 18:12

user942557 · 29/11/2024 16:58

I get really fed up of seeing people on here putting words into other people’s mouths.

Is that not what you're doing?

Ha - no! How on earth could you come to that conclusion?? You accused a poster who was in favour of the assisted dying bill of saying she is more important than little old ladies. I said she never said that. How on earth is that the same?!

ToWhitToWhoo · 29/11/2024 18:08

Coercion can go both ways, though. People can be coerced by friends and relatives to stay alive because 'it's the will of God' or just because they can't bear the thought of losing them.

I once had a conversation with a friend who told me that, if I tried to kill myself or refused food and drink if my life became intolerable due to extreme pain (not always possible to palliate completely) or a condition like locked-in syndrome or MND, she would come along and physically prevent me from doing so. I shocked her by telling her that if she did, and I was still physically capable of killing, I would kill her in self-defence. Whereas if she ever tried to murder me, I would just call the police. I fear being forced to live under intolerable conditions more than I fear being murdered.

Helixpoint · 29/11/2024 18:07

Gloriia · 29/11/2024 18:05

MPs have voted in favour, it goes to the next step for scrutiny so it hasn't actually passed yet.

Yes but it’s the best outcome we could have today

Gloriia · 29/11/2024 18:05

Helixpoint · 29/11/2024 17:58

I’m so incredibly relieved and grateful that this has passed.

what a day.

MPs have voted in favour, it goes to the next step for scrutiny so it hasn't actually passed yet.

Helixpoint · 29/11/2024 17:58

I’m so incredibly relieved and grateful that this has passed.

what a day.

Daleksatemyshed · 29/11/2024 17:50

Until you've seen someone you love wearing away every day you have no idea how terrible it is to watch someone have a long, painful death. I don't care about what religion says, or anyone else for that matter, if I was going to die slowly and in terrible pain I'd take the assisted dying. All the people who think palliative care gives someone are quiet, happy death are only fooling themselves, with some illnesses there are no good deaths.
@Onand I'm sorry for your loss, it sounds like a terrible time for you

snarkygal · 29/11/2024 17:39

Hurray! Very pleased with this news.

ByMerryKoala · 29/11/2024 17:31

In Canada one in four people think that assisted dying should be extended to make homelessness a criteria for eligibility.

This is how elastic the overton window becomes once people are accustomed to assisted dying. The value of a life lived with any suffering is diminished to nothing

Gloriia · 29/11/2024 17:31

XxSideshowAuntSallyx · 29/11/2024 17:28

Try listening to some of those who are dying and know they're dying. Imagine knowing you're going to die a slow, painful death.

They just interviewed someone on BBC News and he spoke so eloquently (unlike the other woman), he has stage 4 cancer started with bowl cancer and now in his brain. It is for people like him not for someone with a disability in a care home.

Yes but then we just had a pp posting about a mnd sufferer and a quadriplegic so there is clearly some confusion.

VioletSpeedwell · 29/11/2024 17:31

Craftysue · 29/11/2024 17:25

I'm so relieved that the bill has passed. I'm just sorry it's taken so long to be passed. The trauma of my husband's death will never leave us

Nor my mother's.

Proper investment in palliative care with relief of pain and unpleasant symptoms should be available to all

It doesn't exist.

Lockupyourbiscuits · 29/11/2024 17:29

Proper investment in palliative care with relief of pain and unpleasant symptoms should be available to all
Then people might not have to choose this option and maybe few will
There should be money and resources channelled into a new terminal care pathway so people are no longer so terrified of a painful horrible death that they chose to terminate their life prematurely . Self administered poison is not a pleasant peaceful death

XxSideshowAuntSallyx · 29/11/2024 17:28

Gloriia · 29/11/2024 17:17

Yes we can only hope the amendments etc get rejected and it doesn't go through. I believe it is only the first step on a very long road.

Try listening to some of those who are dying and know they're dying. Imagine knowing you're going to die a slow, painful death.

They just interviewed someone on BBC News and he spoke so eloquently (unlike the other woman), he has stage 4 cancer started with bowl cancer and now in his brain. It is for people like him not for someone with a disability in a care home.

Gloriia · 29/11/2024 17:26

'I remember following Tony Nicklinson and his fight to end his life and my heart breaking for him. The fact he had to refuse food and starve himself to death always made me angry for him.I also remember the young Rugby player who had been paralysed going to Dignitas as he couldn't go on living like he was.'

But neither would've been eligible <for want of a better word> as they weren't terminally ill with only 6 months to live. Unless you are suggesting that anyone with a very poor quality of life should be candidates which is what concerns many people that this will just be the start.

Craftysue · 29/11/2024 17:25

I'm so relieved that the bill has passed. I'm just sorry it's taken so long to be passed. The trauma of my husband's death will never leave us

VioletSpeedwell · 29/11/2024 17:22

Gloriia · 29/11/2024 17:17

Yes we can only hope the amendments etc get rejected and it doesn't go through. I believe it is only the first step on a very long road.

I'm quietly confident it will go through.

It reflects public opinion.

Gloriia · 29/11/2024 17:17

SuperfluousHen · 29/11/2024 16:59

Awful day.
Just awful. 😞

Yes we can only hope the amendments etc get rejected and it doesn't go through. I believe it is only the first step on a very long road.

XxSideshowAuntSallyx · 29/11/2024 17:00

I agree with it. It's something I have always said if I am at the stage where I terminally ill or confined to bed unable to do anything for myself being fed by someone else, being washed by someone else, unable to talk I don't want to live.

I remember following Tony Nicklinson and his fight to end his life and my heart breaking for him. The fact he had to refuse food and starve himself to death always made me angry for him.

I also remember the young Rugby player who had been paralysed going to Dignitas as he couldn't go on living like he was.

SuperfluousHen · 29/11/2024 16:59

Awful day.
Just awful. 😞

user942557 · 29/11/2024 16:58

I get really fed up of seeing people on here putting words into other people’s mouths.

Is that not what you're doing?