To ask teachers about disruptive behaviour in secondary schools?

Because that is what we would call it if bosses in adult workplaces acted like this -- bullying. If I were up till all hours revising for an exam or finishing a project, and some teacher came bustling up to issue me a detention because my tie was too loose, I would lose whatever shred of respect I had for that person.

Schools are not adult workplaces though and if DC don't have the ability, will or even to be able to understand that they sometimes have to do things that they don't really fancy or see the need for then they may struggle at work.
My son getting a demerit for having his shirt untucked is fine by me, he knows the rules and if he chooses to break them then he has to take the consequences and I sure as hell don't see it as bullying.

But we both know that many of the hundreds of things kids can be punished for now have nothing to do with safely organizing a thousand pupils or helping them move between lessons. Things like wearing socks that are the wrong shade of gray, or having a tie that is two inches too long, or a button undone, or dropping your pencil during a lesson, or taking off a sweater indoors, or looking out the window during a lecture. These rules do, however, allow headteachers to create the appearance of respect and good order without having to deal with difficult issues like bullying. They also tend to discourage students with SEN or other difficulties from attending, which helps with the all-important exam results.

And as far as uniforms, many parents that support uniforms in general still despise the petty faultfinding and financial expense now associated with them. Many staff also hate rules that essentially place us in the position of bullying good kids that already have enough on their plate as teenagers. Because that is what we would call it if bosses in adult workplaces acted like this -- bullying. If I were up till all hours revising for an exam or finishing a project, and some teacher came bustling up to issue me a detention because my tie was too loose, I would lose whatever shred of respect I had for that person.

And yes, parents are going to "wade in" and complain in the face of draconian rules that seem unreasonable on their face to the vast majority of people. Obviously they don't understand the job as well as professional educators, but let's not act like we're the priests of some religious mystery cult, whose every rule is the product of some ineffable wisdom beyond conventional understanding, regardless of any apparent connection with actually educating children.

And also, 'please consider educating them 1:1'? 😵‍💫 Yes, because it's just that easy...

They are like knickers. No legs to them at all!

With respect, many parents are aware that mainstream isn't right for their child but also know they haven't got a hope in hell of getting them an EHCP and placed in a more appropriate school (and even if they manage the former, the latter can be still out of reach). I'm not saying that is the case with the family you referred to - I don't know their innermost thoughts (and I presume there must be more to the boy's issues than you have stated for you to claim that mainstream isn't for him... all you have mentioned is that he is seeks attention) - but this is the reality for many many families in the UK right now. Many LAs will do anything they can to keep an SEN child in mainstream (often going against the law). This is well documented. As you have a child with ASD (as do I) I'm surprised I have to explain this.

Oh come on - shouting out is not something a child can (or should) be in a special school for.

My kids aren't little shits and respect their teachers. I'm not the one with a child who is out of control. I don't really care what you think! It's not me with the problem children. I just feel for the poor teachers who have to deal with this crap and excuses from parents (or worse, well he's fine for me at home) instead of accepting it's their fault and they should sort it out.

Yes visible. Skirts so short that when they stand up you can see underwear sometimes with sanitary towels in view- walking upstairs behind girls can be really stressful.

If 1:1 works better for your child, please consider educating them 1:1. For the sake of your child, and for the sake of all students and teachers who have to suffer said disruption. My child has ASD and cannot cope with too much noise, so a child arguing with the teacher or talking during a lesson would impact their learning. Now who takes priority over whom?
If your child is lovely at home, is it because they get more attention than a teacher can give? I have a child in my form who is massively attention-seeking. A lovely lad 1:1, but a nightmare in a class of 30, because he cannot cope with not being the centre of attention and sharing his every whimsey. Mainstream isn't for him, but parents refuse to see that, so everyone else in class has to suffer when he, yet again, shouts out about something that just entered his head.

Yes, this is non-negotiable. Parents sending their children into school with the idea that they don't have to respect their teacher until they have decided that the teacher has shown themselves to be competent or worthy of professional respect are a MASSIVE part of the problem.

Twas ever thus. I was a supply teacher 30 years ago and I had to give it up because the behaviour was so unbelievably bad. The only year group where I could reliably know it wouldn't be awful was Year 1.

Worst experiences of many terrible ones

-watching a pupil throw a stack of lockers at a teacher
-having a child skin up in the lesson
-being locked in to a classroom in 'the unit' with a panic button under the desk and a security guard outside. The kids had a group punch-up.

Topped off with seeing a parent punch and knock out the headteacher because her child had been touched by a teacher while the teacher was trying to break up a fight.

Agree with all of these but what's wrong with Nike pro shorts in summer?

No, students should respect teachers from the off.

This is exactly the issue most posters are talking about.

I think we are conflating two meanings of 'respect.' There is the inherent respect you owe each other as human beings, which doesn't have to be earned.

But then there is the other common meaning of respect, which is the one often used when talking about relations between employees and employers, teachers and students etc. That one requires trust in someone's competence, judgment, and good will. That does have to be earned. Or as some would prefer to say, we start off with that kind of respect, but it can easily be lost.

There are, as many have said, myriad reasons for poor behaviour. I suspect the poster had a bit of an agenda to push there. Often, kids with poor behaviour come from chaotic households, where they may not have been sent to nursery at a young age, but will have been pretty much ignored at home, even though, technically, they had a parent or carer there. Or there are the kid who. Don't think they need to do any work 'cos my dad didn't get any qualifications and he earns loads.'

This used to be the case. But not now, students with bad behaviour come from all sorts of families including aspirational ones.

"Those of us who have tended to put our kids in childcare" is almost everyone. Its not as if that 'choice' is confined to some select class of high achieving education-valuers.

I’m a teacher and agree with ALL of this. The attention span deterioration has really struck me recently, even my top set year 10’s need to be reminded to look at the board frequently!

I agree and this is across both State and Private.
At my Ds's school the kids are sanctioned for things that wouldn't even raise an eyebrow at a lot of State schools. I sit on the exclusion panel for a State school and we keep kids who have repeatedly done things that would have seen my son expelled if he did it once.
Phones are not allowed, uniform rules are rigid and very specific including haircut length for boys and being clean shaven. Not opening a door for adults is seen as unacceptable, as is walking through a door before an adult. leaving school premises during the day isn't allowed,temporary exclusion is rare and expulsion is rarer. DS's friends from other schools are horrified by what he could get into trouble for - but were also shocked that he could wear a proper tie as they had been banned at theirs for safety reasons!

Sense of entitlement - children made to feel special
Manners not valued or taught, thinking of others, treating others as you want to be treated
Did you read the thread about the mother who insisted on going ahead with her expensive birthday party, even though her daughter had D&V (diarrhea and vomiting)? She didn’t cancel, exposing many other families to the illness, because the girl would have been sad if the party had been called off. This type of parenting results in teenagers who are spoiled and self-centered, showing little regard for others.

(previously this naturally arise from Xhristian teaching)
3 words: archbishop of canterbury

Human rights - teachers aren't allowed to discipline like they did when I was at school 70s/80s) - one teacher used to throw a board rubber at you if you talked so we were scared of her

The human right in question is the right to education, not the right to avoid discipline. Corporal punishment was outlawed in state schools in 1886 and extended to private schools in England and Wales in 1998—12 years later. This is not about human rights; it reflects British law, which is in line with the Convention on the Rights of the Child. One key article related to this is:

"States Parties shall take all appropriate legislative, administrative, social, and educational measures to protect the child from all forms of physical or mental violence, injury or abuse, neglect or negligent treatment, maltreatment or exploitation, including sexual abuse, while in the care of parent(s), legal guardian(s), or any other person who has the care of the child."

I went to school in the 80s, and teachers didn’t throw anything at us or slam the table. I had three female teachers who were absolutely sadistic, but they expressed this through humiliation, not physical force. I think we can all agree that abusive teachers do exist, and it's important to have checks and balances in place.

There are many reasons why behavior in schools is challenging today. Students struggle with concentration and have developed a need for instant gratification from watching YouTube, TikTok, and playing extreme video games since early childhood. To be honest, many adults aren’t much better in some ways. Not sure what anyone can do about it other than try and keep their kids offline where possible, send them to scouts, guides help them learn skills and develop resilience.

I've actually read most of the thread, and loads of valid points have been made, particularly regarding parental attitudes. I left teaching in the summer due to a combination of deteriorating behaviour and workload. I agree with all PPs that the majority is either weak or neglectful parenting. We hear so often in MN that children's feelings must all be acknowledged and validated and that four year olds can't possibly be expected to follow instructions. For a significant number of children now, the rot has set in by the time they start school. I have two friends who work in lower primary who don't think they can last the year due to disruption and, often, violence. We should be expecting NT young children to, essentially, do as they are told, the first time of asking. If this hasn't happened, there will be problems at school. A reception teacher with 30 students needs them to line up for assembly, or a fire evacuation, without having to negotiate/ discuss/ explain.

I also agree with those who have issues with the overcrowded curriculum that is completely unsuitable for a significant proportion of students from an early age. I taught a subject that was set and even then we had a huge range of ability in each class. Trying to teach students expecting grades from 1 to 9 in one class results in both ends being failed. The one size fits all curriculum doesn't work.

And yes, all children need a pen, every day.

Don't forget the "I don't need to work because my Dad owns the company, and I'm gonna work for him" child.

Well, anecdotally, those of us who have tended to put our kids in childcare tend to have kids who are generally invested in doing well in school- largely because they can see the long term benefits. Behaving in school tends to go along with that.

There are, as many have said, myriad reasons for poor behaviour. I suspect the poster had a bit of an agenda to push there. Often, kids with poor behaviour come from chaotic households, where they may not have been sent to nursery at a young age, but will have been pretty much ignored at home, even though, technically, they had a parent or carer there. Or there are the kid who. Don't think they need to do any work 'cos my dad didn't get any qualifications and he earns loads.'

I'm not from the UK originally, but I find it interesting how completely powerless contemporary UK parents seem to feel. There's a weird sort of shruggy "Well what can I do about it?" attitude around their children's behaviour. I have two different friends who let their young teens away with all sorts because they "just can't face a battle about it" or similar. I think a combination of both parents working FT, weaker family structures (much more relationship break up, much smaller more fragmented families, people living far away from grandparents etc), weaker communities, the internet and social change mean parents are worn down and isolated.

This is too far outside our society's comfort zone to even be contemplated.

Oh for goodness sake! Talk about undermining your staff. If the idiots had shocked themselves we all know who would be hauled across the coals. If my kids were in trouble with the teacher, firstly I would believe it and get them to explain themselves. Then I would make them apologise and agree a suitable consequence. Funnily enough despite having SEN both of our kids were "sensible" and the teachers rarely had problems with them.