To ask teachers about disruptive behaviour in secondary schools?

If you can see up it, down it or through it, don't wear it to work/school. If the staff dressed as some of our year 11 girls do on interview day, the parents would lodge formal complaints to the Head (and rightly so).

Gentle parenting is a crock of shit, and is creating a generation of feeble, hostile, and entitled adults. Children need direction, support, effort, love, discipline (now a dirty word), reward, praise, and consequences.

I interviewed a young lady at a mock interview and I can honestly say she was one of the smartest most switched on savvy young women I had ever met.
She looked like she was about to go clubbing, would I have given her a job? Maybe but it was 50/50. IF she had been dressed more appropriately it would have been 100% so these kids need to learn that what you wear CAN affect your prospects and it starts at school

And all State schools are full of feral children with parents who don't give a shit if we are going to generalise?
Can't be, right?

And this girl won’t learn an important lesson and won’t get offered jobs she otherwise would. The feedback given is precisely the message the girl needs to hear. So incredibly valuable.

@FrodosTemper it's not 'shaming' to tell someone that their outfit is inappropriate for the world of work, and that accusation is a good example of why things are the way they are.
Would you be happy if you went into a medical consultation and the doctor had on hot pants and a sports bra just? Or in for parents night and the teacher wore that?

Wow. Are we back to shaming girls for what they wear? It really wasn't your business I'm afraid. Of course she thought it was suitable otherwise she wouldn't have worn it. You did shame her, at least own it. As well meaning as you presumably were, you embarrassed her. There is always a way of getting these things across. Asking the girl if she thought it was appropriate for meeting a stranger in a formal setting was a bit dishonest. Were you her teacher? Part of the mock interviews? If you were directly involved, you could have said that interviews require formal attire, such as suits or similar and dressing for the job you're applying for. If the girl was applying for a job in a tattoo place or other alternative places, her outfit may have been ok.

pubic pelmet

When women speak about pother women this way, what hope is there for feminism

I help 2 schools with Y11 Mock interviews and the school with the tighter discipline certainly better prepares the DC for the world of work based on what I see.

I recall one girl coming to school on the morning she would be going to her mock interview wearing a very short skirt, what we called a pubic pelmet back in my day, and a very tight cropped top, displaying her belly piercings. I quietly asked her, in private, if she though that the outfit, lovely as it was (I can lie with the best of them), was suitable for going to meet a stranger in a formal setting. The next day her mother was yelling on the phone to the Deputy Head that I had humiliated her daughter, it was none of my blankety-blank business what her daughter wanted to wear.

pssssst 🙃you must not say that there is bad behaviour in fee paying schools. There can't be, right? Fee paying families are all about music, art, culture, sport, a sophisticated life, they have no time to be horrible. If there is any bad behaviour at all it's kitten like bad behaviour. All private school parents are super involved and invested and therefore super nice and anyone who calls out in class gets sent to coventry. According to some on this thread.

@Birdscratch I don’t doubt that there is some comparison between apples and pears between independent and state schools.

What can a teacher or state school do now to give a good experience to a child who is having a bad experience because of bad behaviour and disruption? I’m sure it’s a horrible environment to teach in but it’s worse to have to learn through this. Most of the suggestions to fix this are structural or adopting rigid behaviour controls but that doesn’t help a child in the system now.

I’m asking as a reluctant private school parent as I no longer have confidence in the state offer and want to know if anything can change quickly to help my children.

I do think we have to bear in mind, though, that there are some schools with very vicious management of behaviour - often in MATs. Teachers have been speaking out themselves about Mossbourne and about the Astrea Trust in Cambs which has leaked staff left , right and centre and where staff themselves took strike action.

Again , though, I think parents don't actually know what goes on.

DH works in a private school. He deals with different issues form me but still complains of poor behaviour often at the arrogant end of the spectrum-and knows kids run rings around some staff.

From experience of working in a school that has had to accept an ex private school pupils.
Schools will often syphon them off into the bottom buckets of progress 8 and leave the teachers to try and teach these pupils. Who can often destroy entire classes whilst the SLT stand there and watch. Often setting teachers (and whole classes) up for failure.

You are absolutely correct but whatever the reasons for behaviour being better at Private schools the fact is that it IS the case at most Private schools, which is a major reason why parents choose them.
No child who wants to learn should be prevented from doing so by the bad behaviour of others but all too often its how it is

I did see the comments from Labour about cutting down on sanctions and exclusions and I pity the teaching staff that will have to deal with the consequences of that. You just know it won’t come with any funding for additional support.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/article/2024/jul/20/english-schools-to-phase-out-cruel-behaviour-rules-as-labour-plans-major-education-changes

Independent schools don’t tend to have children with behavioural problems because that behaviour isn’t tolerated and the parents are highly (financially) invested in their child’s education. Children are sanctioned and then the parents are asked to remove their child from the school.

That doesn’t mean that private schools are good at managing disruptive behaviour. In fact it’s quite the opposite - private schools don’t have to manage disruptive behaviour because they just ask the children to leave. State schools don’t have the luxury of refusing service to difficult customers. They’re not businesses that can cherry pick the easiest kids to teach. They have a duty to educate children. They have to find a way to work with difficult, unsupportive parents and children that can’t or won’t engage with learning.

While I agree that problems caused by parenting style/lack of support are a serious issue, just as bad is the lack of support from SLT.

During my long career in teaching I saw this change from the headteacher always defending teachers (sometimes when they were in the wrong) to the sort of undermining illustrated by Jifmicroliquid.

Defending the indefensible needed to change, but it has swung far too far the other way. Quite honestly the type of people promoted to these posts nowadays are a big part of the problem. And the few SLT members who never give up tend to end up completely burned out.

Well done, you and your dc are winning in life.

Something I see on these threads a lot is that truancy was more of an issue in the past whereas behaviour/respect is the issue now.

I wonder if what we might be seeing is that the kids who would have previously truanted and the parents would be failing to prevent this behaviour, because they are ineffectual, or don't see the value in education, or don't respect school, are the same ones (effectively, obviously not literally!) as the ones who aren't engaging now and who are being disruptive and the parents don't back up school staff etc. And then there will be a rubbing off effect where pupils who might have been too timid to instigate such behaviour on their own are seeing the more bolshy kids effectively get away with it and it makes it feel more acceptable so they start copying it too. Hence the culture within schools has changed.

Not sure exactly what you'd do to fix that since clearly just allowing all the disengaged kids to bunk off isn't a solution.

Agree with all of this. Why is it bad to rescue your child from a school in which their learning is constantly disrupted and bullying and violence is unchecked? You would be failing in your duty as a parent if you have the means to radically improve your child’s educational outcomes but sat on your hands.

It infuriates me so much that absolutely NOTHING is done about this. Poor behaviour and disruption is totally unaddressed. Cosy chats and hot chocolate with the HT does not stop a child from being violent and disruptive but we all have to pretend that it does because ‘inclusion’, and inclusion is much cheaper than alternatives. And all the time the education provided to state school pupils in these schools disappears down the plug hole. Politicians need to recognise the issue and take meaningful action - NOW.

A little example for you. Year 8 end of year exam. I caught two girls talking and pointing to each others papers. I went over and quietly reminded them (as to not disturb the rest of the class) that this was an exam and if they did that in a GSCE or formal exam, the exam would be void. Five minutes later I caught them talking, giggling and reaching to each others papers again. I went over and removed their papers and told them to get a book out or revise for another exam. Again, I did this quietly as to avoid disturbing the class who were still working.
I drew a line through the papers and put them on my desk. I spoke to both girls again at the end and explained why I’d done what I’d done and reminded them of the consequences if they’d done that in a GCSE. I told them they would not receive an exam mark as a result of their actions (not an issue, just KS3 exams that we set as a school to monitor progress).

The next morning I was hauled into the heads office as parent of one child had complained that I had humiliated her and she should have been able to finish the exam regardless of what she did, because it wasn’t fair to make her feel that way. The head made me let the girls resit the exam and wanted me to apologise to the girls (I refused the latter!). Both girls turned up to the ‘resit’ a few days later with smirks on their faces.

That is what a lot of teachers are dealing with where management is concerned. Fear of parents and the repercussions. Children racing home to whinge to mum regardless of what they have done, and mum coming in on the bounce.

My DC were educated in Alabama.

They went to an elementary school in the richest part of town but then transferred to a middle school in the poorest. Half the places at that middle school were by lottery and the other half by grades. A lot of these families of the pupils were living in horrible conditions with parents working two or three jobs to make ends meet, two or three families to a flat. The first day of school those parents were lined up down the street to get their children enrolled and pick up computers and sort out classes.

There was very little class disruption (apart from the 8th grade percussion section in band class) and it was because the parents valued their children's education, respected the teachers and admin. staff, and brought their children up to treat teachers with respect. In turn the teachers were able to treat the children in a friendly, kind way not the adversarial way that so often happens. Dress codes were not enforced and children could go to the toilet during lessons without a whole palaver over it.

It comes down to parenting IMO.

I think you need to look at Indy schools that generally do not have problems with behaviour. The over riding factor is that all the parents are invested in their child’s education as they are paying a bloody fortune for it! So you don’t really get many uninvolved parents. Getting into trouble and being naughty is seem as pretty pathetic by the other students - it’s cool to be involved with music, sport and get good grades. The occasional naughty one in a class is treated with disdain. Since by DD has been in private ( 10 years) the naughtiest thing that’s ever happened is a bit of answering back to the teacher and not doing homework - both of which is a scandal for weeks and the children involved are heavily sanctioned .Day to day, there aren’t many silly rules and sanctions for little misdemeanours and everyone respects each other. Children are treated and known as individuals.

@metellaestinatrio Your point is spot on. I’m naturally left of centre but I think the ideological consensus is going to be extremely strained over the next few years as there is so much engineering, politicking and a total lack of choice around things like education. I strongly believe in redistribution through the tax system so I’m happy to pay my fair share (would pay more too if it would make a real difference), but I also expect public services to work and I expect my child to be taken care of within them.

We left because state education as behaviour was out of control at primary. The independent secondary schools we’re looking at have none of the strictness or sanctions being advocated on this thread, behaviour is still good, academics are great with far far less homework than our local state school and the kids are much happier and friendlier. I’ve also had friends move to within 0.25 miles of the best schools in catchment. I won’t be judged or feel guilty for wanting a happy childhood and good education for my child when the alternatives are as described on this thread.

Funnily enough no one else threatens the teachers now because they know there’ll be consequences.

😮I’d hope no one threatens the teachers because they aren’t awful people not because they don’t want their kids to be thrown out of school!