To ask teachers about disruptive behaviour in secondary schools?

Wow! Thanks for the responses, it feels quite unanimous that it's a general kind of cultural thing then?

Its a general white English culture which is why if you go to visit the high performing independent and state schools, English whites are the minority.

I've worked in secondary in London since 1991. Behaviour has always been challenging in my opinion. What has changed is the attitude of more parents, so many are in direct conflict all the time with us about basic rules like wearing a school tie, or not having facial piercings.
However there are schools and I work in one who do keep the line. Pretty much any student Send or eal pupil premium or any other type, can succeed. Smaller class size would be nice but discipline is the key.
My leadership team are very old fashioned luckily.
We are also seeing covid issues but those year groups are aging through the system now and our current year 7s have much much better behaviour and manners, so I think there is hope.

Wihout having read all the previous answers:

• Basic manners: I greet every student at my door; about 2/3 of each class fail to respond to my cheery "Good morning", just ingore me as they walk through my door. Similarly, there are students who don't even ask for a pen; they think it's acceptable to walk to my desk and take one from my drawer, where they are kept, and don't understand why I pull them up on it every time. Or why I get annoyed when I have given them a pen and they deliberately broke it, then want another and I offer a pencil, which upsets them.
• Parents ensuring their children have basic equipment - it would be oh so nice if I didn't need to spend 5min of my lesson handing out pens, pencils, rulers, calculators, and then to try and get it all back again.
• It would be nice if parents belived that I have better things to do with my time than phone them up about their child's behaviour, so no, I don't make it up when I call you and tell you that your child repeatedly swore at another student.
• Similarly, ensure your child has some basic life skills - using scissors correctly (without stabbing someone), using safety equipment without argument (yes, you really do need to wear goggles when you are working with acid, and not on the top of your head, but as instructed), having cracked an egg before the age of 16, having some idea of measurements like litres and millilitres or how to use a ruler to measure something, having handled money in a shop, being able to cross a road safely by age 11.
• That's for starters. It would also be nice if students knew that "skibbity toilet" is not an answer to any question I'd ever ask, that swearing does not belong in school, that talking when I'm talking is not okay, that chairs are for sitting on, that they cannot get up every 2mins to open or close windows, that they need to use toilets at break and lunch and not ask me 5min into a lesson whether they can go, that I'm asking them to write things down for a reason and that being punctual to lessons is a non-negotiable. But I can only dream.

I think schools need to stop focusing on lack of equipment (just give them a sodding pen instead of a negative point), and spend less time focusing on uniform. I was walking a student to their class last week who rarely comes in and often truants, we walk past a member of SLT who picks up the fact that they're wearing the wrong shoes and tells them they need to borrow some black ones from Reset before they go to class. I knew the student would kick off if that happened and they wouldn't go to lesson. I decided to continue to walk them to their lesson and the shoes could be sorted afterwards. Pick your battles.

This student has a fucking awful home life, it's far safer for them to be at school than home. They come in and then someone's going on about their sodding shoes. Who gives a shit? They're being told "every second counts," yet theyre happy to stop a child's learning to make sure they have the right shoes on. Jeez.

Schools are concentrating on the wrong thing. Out school is a trust and it's run by officious men in suits who try to run it like a business.

We need to build trust and respect but we're going about it the wrong way. Fucked if I know how we do I though!

In my experience (23 years in secondary) it’s three things that lead to poor behaviour. Lack of decent parenting / support from parents; adverse life events; SEND that isn’t being addressed or supported.

I’ve worked in 2 different schools with excellent behaviour (1x state grammar and 1 x church comp) - I’d say the common factor was that most of those kids had firm boundaries at home, and parents who valued their education and felt their kids were lucky to be at a good school. Suggesting to students that you might have call their parents was the ultimate nuclear-button threat!

My own kids (good Academy comp/outstanding independent comp) both say it’s normal for some lessons to be disrupted by behaviour.

It definitely isn't just secondary school

1. parents not teaching children to respect authority and 2)staff hands being tied by Paul Dix-sequence, wishy washy behaviour management policies
2. children in mainstream education who shouldn't be.
3. picking up the pieces arising from inadequate mental health funding

It’s not just secondary-primary is just as bad.

More money is needed for staffing/resourcing.
More special schools to meet the needs of children with high needs.
Less testing.
A broader curriculum with less content.
Some sort of sanctions for schools to use when pupil behaviour is dangerous/stops others from learning. Saying to schools that’s it’s illegal to exclude when a child has SEN sounds great but just isn’t helpful.

This is why we are near bankrupting ourselves to keep our DC in private. Unfortunately the local schools are a write-off.

DC’s school is strict, with a calm, quiet, learning experience.

This, and having no consequences backed up by management and the government, I've read posts on here from teachers who've been assaulted by pupils and have to teach them the next day because 'well all behaviour is communication.... what need weren't you meeting that made them feel they had to punch you?'....

I'm retired now but behaviour got increasingly more challenging. The school I worked in had a significant number of families in crisis and huge poverty. When I started teaching in the 90s the biggest issue was truancy and generally boys who couldn't see the value of education because their parents didn't see the value. Over the decades, support for struggling families was eroded, poverty increased and special schools/units closed. The number of very difficult girls increased. Mobile phones and social media caused numerous problems which were acted on in schools. Illiteracy was still a problem but attendance improved. Difficult pupils actually came to school to act out. Mental health issues went through the roof, not helped by parents addictions. Senior management tried everything to support families but were limited in their reach and Middle management felt unsupported by senior management in dealing with discipline. Most teaching staff tried their best but teaching became difficult with certain classes. More and more was expected of us teachers. More recently senior management all came from practical subjects with a max of 15 and often not that in a class. I taught English and often had 30 in Higher classes, 33 in juniors. There was a disparity between what SMT were expecting and what was achievable. It didn't help that most of the middle and senior management were relatively inexperienced teachers and had moved up the greasy pole very quickly.

Start with the premise everyone should be respected - respect can be lost or maintained
seems it’s shifted and respect has to be earned which starts from a baseline of disrespect, challenge and mistrust.

@QQuirkyandGreen

I'm primary but last year I had an exceptionally entitled class (and their parents). Parents/children would accuse me of bullying them and favouring another child. Other child would accuse me of bullying them and favouring child A. And so on...

So if every child was being both bullied and favoured by me, I'm pretty sure I was balanced and fair.

This is difficult because a lot of it reflects society generally.

I taught for twenty years.

There have always been pupils with send. At the moment there's been a move towards all students doing GCSEs and vocational qualifications weren't funded.

Some students really are just not suited to GCSEs and this does come out in their behaviour.

Schools are responding now by encouraging BTECs.

If teens of 14/15/16 have to study subjects they are not good at and not interested in they behave badly. If they are able to study things they are interested in they behave better.

My school a few years ago created a "sports academy" that year 9s had to apply for. The kids who got in got to do extra sport, sport btec, and wear a special uniform based on sports clothes. A lot of kids who where otherwise causing a lot of trouble in their normal classes were put together and they did work harder for the sports stuff than they otherwise would have done.

Also had the advantage they were not in normal lessons.

Many students who are disruptive have very difficult home stories. One I taught her house had been robbed and she was threatened at knife point. Another the parents marriage had broken up. Dad had refused to see the children but mum developed a drinking problem and he took them on. He couldn't even wash their clothes on a regular basis so they often turned up at school in not quite uniform and they were very aware he hadn't wanted them and didn't like them.

Ime it's often the parents. But not in a gentle parenting way, more in a they are just totally failing to provide the basic needs of the child.

It’s bollocks isn’t it, I started out like that and then I realised that sometimes kids do stuff just to see what happens, or because they acted impulsively or for many reasons really. They aren’t always trying to communicate a deep unmet need.

There must be parents put there like me who want their child to attend a school that is strict on behaviour (including mine) so their child feels safe at school and can actually learn enough to be a functioning member of society.

Sooo many people say this now! I started off as one of those parents with my eldest but now am really glad we've stepped back from it! I have a friend who is a very gentle parent and also homeschools but her eldest (5) is a pain to be around as she is constantly nagging for her mum to play, whinging, screaming.

I woke as a SEN TA in a Secondary School. I was really shocked by the behaviour when I first started. I agree with everything that's been said. For a lot of children, school is the only place they encounter discipline.

Things like Facebook don't help. People get together and bitch and moan about staff without having a clue what their child is like. Parents seem unable to accept their child can be a little shit (my child included). Parents no longer trust the education system and staff. I do understand that.

I hear what you’re saying but it may shock you to know these behaviour difficulties are present in nursery, gradually becoming seriously problematic in early primary. It is an organic curve, it really is. Lack of boundaries being put in at home so children don’t feel safe in terms of having an obvious person in charge. Parents not having an option to stay at home when kids are babies and need the time. Too much pressure it’s all very sad but behaviour is 100 times worse than you imagine. Massive investment in families is needed and a return to parents respecting the authority of schools.

Surprised by pp's saying gentle parenting is to blame. I've never met anyone in real life who does full on gentle parenting. I know lots of parents who listen to their kids and respect them more than perhaps the generation before did as standard, if stereotypes are true, but not to the extent of excusing everything. When did gentle parenting peak? Wondering if I've missed it somehow. My kids are in primary school.

At my school generally behaviour is good. I'm expected to be able to teach. If a student misbehaves I can give them a warning. On the third incidence they are removed from the lesson and given a detention.

For me it's the workload that is crazy. I teach full time. I get 5 free periods a fortnight for planning and assessment. On top of that there are so many other jobs that need doing. Feedback on students to other staff. Calling parents to discuss their child's behaviour. Dealing with emails. Training for safeguarding, teaching, software. Setting homework and recording who has and has not done it. Meetings to discuss progress or a deep dive or to get feedback on a drop in. Organising extracurricular activities or visitors. I have set reading tasks for my professional development. Running after school clubs, lunchtime support for students or revision lessons before or after school. This week I have a parents evening, after school club and an after school meeting. Plus I know someone else wants to meet with me to discuss progress of a particular class. Later today I will spend hours marking coursework and a set of mock papers because I know I won't get time in my working week to do it.

Many parents refuse to believe staff about behaviour, even if there are witnesses and it happens repeatedly.
There is a culture of parents treating kids as mates and it means there is little respect for adults they meet outside of the home, even the police.
Many children are chronically overtired because of tech, anxious and self conscious because of social media and either eating absolute junk before school or nothing at all. Concentration is affected, as is mood. Parents do not want to deal with their child’s upset by taking tech away at night, instead they push for a diagnosis of some kind. ADHD of course exists but excess sugar, energy drinks, coffee, lack of sleep and constant blue light will mimic many of the symptoms.
The effective management of behaviour in schools is key to everything and a relentless job with few real joys!

This!

Posted elsewhere this week about a detention I gave two children who were poking pencils in an electrical socket. Parents complained that it was unkind to give them a 30 min and the deputy head removed the detention…