To ask teachers about disruptive behaviour in secondary schools?

@neverbeenskiing this is spot on!

I’m in my 22nd year… in a range of different roles, pastoral and academic and agree there have been significant changes since the start of my career.

I think sadly fewer and fewer people are choosing teaching. I'll be very glad when our teen gets through school but by then the universities will probably be struggling even more than they already are.

Oh god poor teachers. Makes me wonder who would want to join the teaching profession now.

I've worked in primary and secondary schools for many years as a DSL. I agree with the majority of posters that parenting has changed considerably in the last decade. But there are several reasons for this and it's not quite as simple as parents "not giving a shit".

We have seen a massive increas in the following scenarios

Parents working in professional jobs who are affluent but time-poor. They feel guilty for this and have overcompensated by indulging their DC, showering them with gifts and letting them rule the roost. These children are often demanding, verbally abusive and even physically aggressive to their parents at home and the parents feel powerless to change the situation. Sometimes they come to us asking for help with their childs behaviour, but they are often embarrassed and in denial about the extent to which they've lost control.

Parents who are living in genuine poverty, reliant on food banks, living in accommodation that is cold, vermin infested or lacking in the most basic amenities, in areas with high levels of crime and ASB and no hope that things will improve. These parents are so used to being let down by services they have no reason to trust us or believe us, about their child's behaviour or anything else. But also when we call about their child getting a detention they're already at the end of their rope and want someone to take it out on. They also think we're going to judge them, and let's face it some of us will, so they're defensive.

Parents who are highly anxious and so averse to their child experiencing any discomfort or disappointment whatsoever that they fall over themselves to help them evade consequences, they minimise or excuse their behaviour and cannot or will not see the impact on others. These are the parents who tell me that their child is "traumatised" by being asked to do something they don't want to do, being told 'no' or given a consequence by Teachers, and I think they really believe it. These children are so used to being pandered to at home that when school staff treat them the same way as they treat every other child they feel oppressed and accuse the teacher of "bullying" them.

We also have a number of kids in our mainstream school who 10 years ago would have been in special schools, without question. Some of these children simply cannot cope in a mainstream setting due to the complexity of their needs and this manifests in very challenging and in some cases unsafe behaviour. If we tell the LA that we cannot meet a child's needs (not something we do lightly) we are told 'tough shit' basically. It's not the child's fault, and it's not fair on them. But it also isn't fair on staff who get hurt.

@metellaestinatrio

Of course the champagne socialist’s child doesn’t need to worry about this because, for all their parent’s high and mighty proclamations, they know exactly what they should wear for an interview at medical school, at an art gallery, at a think tank, a hedge fund or wherever they want to work.

That's an interesting take on it. Honestly we aren't doing young people any favours if we don't guide them on what is appropriate. I can't see the issue with telling a student that they need to dress more appropriately.

You won't see girls dressed in skirts so short you can see their underwear in either a private school or a comp in a leafy suburb. So by not encouraging them to dress appropriately then we are allowing them to present themselves in a way which isn't always perceived as being smart. So when they go for that job interview they won't stand a chance in a professional setting.

I don't think advising them is being obsessed with their clothing. Sometimes it's hard to avoid seeing someone's underwear when they're walking up stairs. I don't know where to look as a middle aged female.

On the subject of girls clothes and mock interviews, I think it is an issue of clothes, it is just that the examples were of girls.

I read an account of someone who had left a cult or a high control group, it might have been the Amish.

Anyway, one thing she did not understand (amongst other things) was appropriate clothing. She went to a job interview in jeans and a T-shirt.

One thing school uniform doesn't teach children is appropriate clothing. They have uniform and they have other clothes for what ever they are in to.

I know that one of the posters giving numbers has given the length of time since they were in the classroom.

It may well be worth remembering that in some cases these larger numbers are of children that would have been beaten by the teacher or head teacher if they mis behaved.
And would have been chastised when they got home if the teacher told the parent about it.
Any child that was not deemed normal was shipped off else where because SEND didn't exist, and many children left school at 14 to go to work.

Lets not try and push those times as enlightened or something that we should return to.

There were 44 children in my primary school class; I have taught up to 32 children in a class. I can say from my own experience that I can’t remember any really poor behaviour when I was at school, we were too scared of our teachers and what our parents would say. Teaching becomes harder when you go over about 24, in my opinion, and it is harder to give children the attention they need. If class numbers make no difference, why do private schools generally have very small classes?

That sounds awful and really unsafe!

The school I taught at previously- was there 6 years and behaviour went downhill massively. New head who wouldn't suspend for serious behaviour/persistent disruption or bad behaviour. The result was, loads of kids racking up detentions that they didn't bother attending, no further consequences so nothing changed.

Where I work now has, on paper, a 'worse' intake - town centre, very deprived (top 10% of deprived areas) 45% fsm, lots of SEN needs, lots of wider issues e.g. safeguarding because of the socio-economic challenges and other things.
I can honestly say, behaviour is excellent.
We work incredibly hard on very consistent routines, line up in the morning and after break/lunch to ensure a calm start. Everything is followed up and the head is very visible and involved.
Parents are, on the whole supportive- they know the value of an education and want their children to get out of poverty.

So for me, parent support and school leadership make a massive difference.

That said, there are so many challenges to working in schools, it's not surprising some struggle.

My experience was that a high quality childcare placement helped our now teen understand the basic expectations of group environments and thus was a good preparation for primary school.

You may be hinting at the opposite but IME some children would absolutely benefit from compulsory childcare outside the home with qualified professionals. This is because too many parents are raising their young children by IPad, and often those parents are the most in need of support themselves.

Eligible for free school meals.

@usernother

Same at my junior school 48 of us and 45 passed the 11+. We loved and respected our teacher but I am going back to the late 60's when so much was different to today.

When I was young there were over 40 pupils in my classes. There was very little bad behaviour. I don't think class sizes have anything to do with it.

Teaching was such an inspirational vocation! A real step up for children turned into adminocraty and here are the results.

I know loadddds of teachers and I am not envying them. Their real attachement to give something better to children is what they hold on to.

Absolutely, but unfortunately the parents who set no boundaries at home are the ones to complain the loudest and threaten the school. Senior management now don't tend to be able to stand up to them like they used to, they get papers involved etc because little Chardonnay had been told to change her skirt length. 🤔

Having taught for a very long time, there has always been disruptive behaviour, but it was handled better, more quickly and effectively at the start if it. The generation of students before the days of IT they generally could focus longer and took responsibility for their own actions. However many were still quite lazy and uninterested, the teenage years.

For the past decade and more, this inertia seems to be compounded with an attitude and entitlement to speak out whenever they want, many just can't be quiet, the younger ones are constantly fiddling and can't sit still, I could go on...

I have to add it does all depend on the school and area and how they're managed. Since Academy takeovers and conglomerates created from the local smaller schools, it's become more difficult. Short lunches and breaks, no opportunity to go and play outside, the same format powerpoints every lesson, not ideal for young people, especially SEN.

I will give an example then stop prattling on lol 😆

At an outstanding school in an affluent area, all students had tablets and behaviour was impeccable. The worst encounter was a bit of silliness. Another school in an impoverished inner city area was out of control. Packs of pupils running around, ripping things off the walls, stealing equipment and in the classroom deliberately destroying equipment given to them and goading and mocking during teaching.

Yes, behaviour has become a lot worse in most academies due to changes in society. A teacher will be challenged constantly, threatened, they have to deal with so much deliberate unruly behaviour, also the low level non stop chatting, disinterest. The pressure to teach the (boring) powerpoints, which are a huge task in themselves, so much writing and listening which they hate, plus the huge amount who have to leave the room for toilet passes, time out cards, so trying to actually teach a full lesson with all in the room is impossible! I've known girls to shout out 'my period had just started, you have to let me out, human right' while looking in their mirrors putting lippy on, so tell them to put it away and no, this helps my anxiety. They have far too many ready answers and excuses 🙄

Having a class of 30 young people as above to educate for a subject they see no value in, even those they should, is a battle. Times that by 6 a day then having to log incidents, do school duties, revision classes, plan, mark every evening, while also feeling exhausted and fed up and wanting to be there for your own kids. It becomes an overwhelming thankless task but some of those kids we genuinely help are why we do it because we care.

I agree, teachers are leaving the profession in droves, less than ever before don't complete training and choose other careers. Xx

@SouthMumof2 In Wales in particular it is eligibility for Free School Meals (eFSM)

Hi what does EFSM mean? Thanks

What does EFSM mean ? Thanks

@Octavia64 some schools don't offer triple science regardless of ability either

The curriculum content is a problem.

It's actually a problem at both ends of the ability range.

I used to teach maths in an admittedly fairly leafy school.

Every year we would have teens who could not access any of the gcse (even at foundation level) and did the entry level maths qualification. For those who don't know entry level maths comes at level 1,2 and 3. Level 1 is roughly equal to reception, level 2 to year 1 and level 2 to year 2.

Every year we would also put in about half of the top set for an additional gcse called "additional maths" which was basically the start of a level maths.

results.ffteducationdatalab.org.uk/gcse/additional-mathematics.php?v=20230817

The gcse in maths, even with the foundation and higher papers, is too hard for some students and too easy for others.

Other schools put their top sets in for statistics gcse. That's because top sets are usually capable of sitting the gcse and getting a 9 by the end of year 10 and you need to do something to keep them occupied.

In maths there used to be an intermediate paper where you couldn't get the really high grades. But it got abolished. Now students who are in the foundation/higher borderline either sit foundation and are capped at a 5 or sit higher, accept they won't be able to do at least 50% of the paper but maybe get a 6.

It's a crapshoot to be honest.

Science is somewhat similar in that higher ability students can sit triple, but everyone else has to do double. There used to be a single for the lower ability students but it got abolished.

I plan to come back and read this entire thread but don't have time so this partly a placemarking comment.

I was educated in another country but I often wonder if class sizes are a problem? what were class sizes like 20 years ago? I feel that classes of 31 students is, potentially, a lot.

But mostly I agree that ther eis less support and respect from parents for the school and teachers. We have had some issues with DS and behaviour at school for lots of reasons. Wht I have found quite strange is that every time I speak to one of the teachers and we discuss the problem, the sanction and the remedy - at school and at home - I am thanked for listening or "taking on board" or "supporting the school". And this is even if I've pushed back a little as DS has SEN and sometimes the behaviour is a result.

But then, I remember that in one early incident where DS was attacked by some bullies from his primary school, the parents of those bullies were crazy people wh were always whining about something and I suspect gave the school a really hard time when they were suspended for attacking DS. So perhaps sthe teachers really are grateful that I listen, engage and support (almost all) sanctions.

And you know what, DS is in year 9 now and we've seen a complete transformation over the last term. I put this down to a combination of efforts from him, us and the school, working together.

Well done to your son. Mine will be overjoyed with a 5 in maths next summer. He is also planning to do a level 3 extended diploma next year and is looking forward to studying something more applied that he is interested in.

My son is well behaved but I can totally understand that kids get frustrated when they are struggling with the GCSE content.

My son was the same. Just did not understand the higher level questions. He did the foundation paper and got a 5. If he had sat the higher paper he would have been totally demoralised as he would have struggled with most of the content. Interestingly, he is now studying a level 3 extended diploma in engineering which is very maths heavy. It has a lot if A level physics and maths content. The difference is he is interested in the subject and the maths and physics taught relates directly to the engineering principles he is being taught and he can see how the maths is applied. It isn’t about learning and regurgitating a maths concept for the sake of it. It has real world application and makes it more interesting and understandable.