'Females.'

Those are women.

People who menstruate, people who go through the menopause, people who suffer employment discrimination on the basis of their perceived likelihood to take maternity leave, people affected by the war on abortion rights.

It's not all the time, but there are a variety of occasions, some of them pretty niche, on which you'd want a term more snappy than "cis women, trans men and non-binary AFAB people".

This is honestly not me being goady, I’m genuinely curious, but what sort of circumstance would need you to specifically reference female women? (Outside of the trans debate of course, where the differences are already made clear within the conversation.)

My mother says 'females.' It drive me absolutely nuts. Recently I've told her a few times to stop doing it, something I would normally never do as her personality is totally flat until she perceives criticism and then she explodes in drama. Thankfully she went for 'baffled annoyance' rather than years of sulking. She was a language teacher so I used the grammar explanation - female is an adjective not a noun.

I have some sympathy for her because she grew up in mid-late 20th century Ireland where the worst thing you could possibly be was a woman.

So what is the alternative when one is specifically referencing female women as oppose to transwomen? The word 'cis' is highly offensive to many women also, not to mention being rather a niche term that hasn't really gained much traction in the mainstream, so is often not understood. I don't like female much either, but struggle for an alternative.

It’s not just outdated, it’s wrong. In fact, I think its use as a noun is more of a modern thing than an outdated thing.

Male and female are much much less precise terms than men and women so it feels an odd choice when talking about humans.

Nope, just curious as to the mechanism behind why certain words become more permissable/preferable than others

I'm used to be tempted to ask "female what? Pigeon/Hedgehog"? When reading reports.
@Frozensun as long as he realises that female is their sex, not species.
However I'm also on the spectrum, so I like specifics.

Are you suggesting the terms male and female were used as nouns for humans before the words man and woman?

I know what you mean OP. Unfortunately it has crept into my own language since the meaning of the word woman isn't always clear to everyone anymore. And I know this isn't the context you mean, but if it weren't for that context I'd never have used it, so can't really answer you honestly without referencing that. I work in a role where separation of people on the grounds of biological sex is necessary and so have adopted 'female' and 'male' so there is no doubt what type of person is being referred to. It then becomes a habit in more casual conversation.

YADNBU. I despise it. It is dehumanising and people using it because it excludes trans women are very short sighted, imo. It used clearly show a hatred for women and girls.

I think that unless you're using it in a scientific context, "35% of males from the group, and 45% of the females", then yeah, the term is outdated.

Has piqued my curiosity though. I wonder when men and women became more acceptable vs males and females... what prompted that.

@TheHangingGardensOfBasildon I see what you mean. Yes, in that context “female” would be preferable as it’s used as an adjective and not a noun. I take issue with it when used as a noun.

I don’t think language-mangling to address language-mangling is helpful. Although I do use “female woman” where it’s necessary to be absolutely clear, in the hope that the tautology might make some people think.

That's not the point I'm making, though. I'm just saying that "Kamala hoped to become the first female president" is how the English language normally works, and what could have been expected to be heard.

It's not really the same as with Obama, as black is an adjective and therefore used in a standard, correct way. Not a perfect equivalent, but this is a bit like if people had described him as 'the first black-man president'. It would sound very much like the speaker was patronising, racist and/or both.

I suppose it all depends on your views. I don’t love being referred to as a cis-woman but I’d take it over female any day of the week because I see incels as more harmful than trans people. But that’s all dependent on personal views and experiences.

(I’m aware that, being MN, this post will likely have several responses about trans people, which I will politely ignore as the thread doesn’t need derailing.)

But that’s because of the obvious history of oppression. We also have Barack Obama as the “first black president”, for example. It all depends on the oppressor vs. the oppressed. In an ideal world there would be no distinctions, but in an ideal world one group wouldn’t be constantly oppressing the other either.

Do you refer to men as males? Eg “there was a group of males in the pub” - this thread isn’t about how many sexes there are, it’s about women being grouped together as “females” sounding a bit creepy

I would much prefer to be called female rather than "CIS woman" which Trans Activists insist on using

I sometimes use it in the discussion of feminist issues when I need clarity about who I mean - so that's mainly written and online. In real life anyone using it sounds like Quark being full-on Ferengi.

My sister pulled him up on it and he didn’t say anything in response 🤷🏻‍♀️

Yes, this is the point I'm making. I think many men do it because they somehow feel like woman or women conferrs something they feel is derogatory. It's nuts.

(Loving your username!)

I popped back to make this very point ‐'woman' is definitely used as a derogatory definer or even a slur.

In the mouths of some, 'woman' debases the subject, and conjures sexed physicality: it implies unattractiveness and someone who is not deserving of being referred to with the implied 'respect' of terms such as ladies.

And absolutely yes to 'women' as a singular!?
I've been on the verge of posting about this so many times but predicted I'd be told to fuck off to Pedants' Corner. Thank you for raising it.

Genuine question: if “woman” now is intepreted by some people to mean “any human adult, male or female, who feels like a woman on that given day” [whatever the hell that means - but it obviously means something to them!], then is there another courteous and non-misogynistic word besides “female” that I can use if I want to make it very clear that I am referring to “human females, excluding males, regardless of how such males may identify” ?