To wonder if people who are objectively bad people know they’re bad, or if they’re just delusional?

People do assume others are like them and project their guilt onto others (as a form of self-preservation?) so they will usually think others are the same but just hiding it.

I've known people who act rudely and selfishly who just think of themselves as 'honest' or 'spicy'. Those who do bad genuinely things often blame others.

If you watch reality prison programmes it's fascinating because every single one says they are innocent and it was a miscarriage of justice.

I even remembered one guy who had taken a woman into the street and stabbed her who said he'd done nothing wrong and his sentence was unfair.

Everyone is the hero of their own story. Yet everyone looks at others as being to blame.

OP - why are you starting a thread examining other people's failings rather than your own? You can't do anything about other people's flaws - but you can stop yours. Channel that energy into every time you've been the "villain"/done something mean in your life and think how you could have been better.

If everyone did that, rather than placing the blame on others, the world would be a much nicer place!

I think you've put it perfectly.

For those who work with criminals. Can you answer this question for me please.

How do child abusers live with themselves? If someone is a good person in the community, works hard, has friends etc

Then beats their children, neglects them, emotionally abuses them.

How do they live in those two worlds? They obviously don't see themselves as a bad. I'd be really interested in an explanation for this.

I often work with sex offenders and other criminals. The burglars and violent offenders usually have good insight into their crimes and the impact on victims and anyone else more widely involved/impacted. The sex offenders rarely do. It's either not them, was exaggerated, a complete lie, a misunderstanding or some other bullshit excuse.

I was married to a narcissist. He was brought up with an enabler mother who saw the court paperwork which included details of him raping me, assaulting me and general emotional abuse and coercion. She chose not to believe me and told everyone i had exaggerated. I think he knew exactly what he was doing. It was a game from the get go and every move and word is calculated for long term goals. So whilst he knew what he was doing, did he truly know the huge impact it would have on me? Not sure about that. Did he care? Absolutely not one bit.

You can justify anything morally. There is no objective standard for "bad" or "truth"

Interesting post! I work with criminals and they often report poor mental health when they committed their crime, saying something like “I don’t recognise the person who did wrong…I know I was really struggling with x..y..z If I hadn’t been in such a bad way I wouldn’t have done what I did”

From experience such people have enablers around them allowing their awful behaviours to continue unchecked. I’m not entirely sure they’re aware but certainly feel insecure about themselves which leads to abusing / controlling others.

I suppose most of us have a limited frame of reference to benchmark ourselves against, and adjust that to make sure we always fall into our own definitions of "good". If you're currently morally bankrupt but operate just about within the confines of the law, you might define "good" as "not a criminal". If you ARE a criminal, you might define "good" as "not a serial killer." We'd probably consider most of the people in jail to be quite bad people, but they obviously consider themselves to have some moral superiority because they aren't child sex offenders, hence why child sex offenders are regularly murdered by other inmates- sometimes even other paedophiles who are not "as bad".

People also find easy ways to justify bad behaviour and to find easy ways to make themselves feel like they've balanced the scales. If you send a string of abusive messages to someone to intimidate them, you probably convinced yourself they gave you no choice in the matter because of something they did. You hit your girlfriend because she provoked you, not because you're a bad person. And then you posted an anti-bullying meme on facebook and bought your mate a pint, so you're a good guy overall.

I work with criminals. My experience is that they know and they have enough awareness to tailor their behaviour to the audience. So to a loved one/ someone they don't want to lose/ someone they're trying to get into a relationship with, they'll admit some failings. But will pass the responsibility for change onto the other person. A "maybe you'll be the person who'll tame me". They will blame their offences on "she stopped having sex with me etc etc". They know, they rarely are put in circumstances such as good therapy where they voice it and own it.

I really feel this. My 'best friend' at school constantly put me down, took the piss out of me and tried her very best to make sure nobody thought I was cool or attractive. I know her and her family well and I don't think she's a bad person, in fact in many ways she's kind and supportive... to people who aren't me.

I've said plenty of things 'in jest' which in fact I know were hurtful to the recipients. I always try to do better but even in my mellow middle age I'm capable of being quite cutting. I don't think I'm a nasty piece of work, but there's definitely a balance.

I think just looking at the thread so many people have replied about other people but it’s rare anyone admits on here to being anything other than sweetness and light! For my part, I know I have some awful traits, countered by good ones, and I know I’ve done some awful things, equally countered by good ones. I’m ashamed of some things I’ve done but I think the question about what makes a ‘good’ or ‘bad’ person is impossible to answer; we’re no more or less than a series of deeds.

Some good books on the topic:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/132615.Snakes_in_Suits

And

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/12391521-the-psychopath-test?ref=nav_sb_ss_1_15

This reminded me of Requiem for a Dream when Sara is asked why she doesn't report her son for repeatedly stealing her TV to sell for drug money and she says "He's my only son, he's all I have".

No, I think most people think of themselves as the victim / hero of their story. Even though it's fiction, Thanos thought himself a hero making tough decisions for the greater good. Everyone else thought him a mass murderer.

Really don’t know but has a long term friend who used people terribly.

she once said that she worked hard to try and be a good person. When we finally (and happily) ended our friendship the one piece of advice I gave her was that if she had to work THAT hard to be a decent person she was better off just being herself.

Actually I do know someone IRL who’s objectively bad. One of my Dad’s friends was made homeless when her son used her house as security for his business. He forged her signature on loan documents.

She didn’t want him to go to prison so she let the house be taken and was put into over-60’s housing. Extraordinarily, she still sees him and has forgiven him.

My ex is either a psychopath or narcissist, he has a long history of abusing women and children. He's been in prison twice previously and is currently serving a 14 year sentence. I don't think he thinks he's a bad person, he either thinks he's justified in what he's done or he lies to himself and makes himself believe he never did it. I'm not quite sure which. He is the absolute worst of the worst though, the abuse he inflicted on children is the worst kind of thing you can imagine.

They are entitled to it.

I've known people who are objectively bad - Machiavellian, controlling or troublemaking behaviours - and they don't see other people as equal to them. They dehumanise others and their focus is entirely on themselves. We are just a resource to them. Some of them definitely got off on what they were doing.

I knew a really horrible individual who said ‘I’m not a good person but I don’t give a fuck!’ She was really unpleasant.

Well, we've all come across the smirk haven't we? The one corner of the mouth, duper's delight, "I've got them, haven't I?" look.

(Run time 18 seconds) Here's Diane Downs, a well known example.

Fairly sure my dad was a narc, it was hard to see him as bad, he just did stuff that was in his interest and didn’t understand when anyone objected because he just had a worldview that said “yeah but this works for me” it just didn’t occur to him that anyone would have opposing interests. He wouldn’t go out of his way to harm anyone for example (that would mean he was interested in anything other than himself) but he just couldn’t comprehend that other peoples needs really mattered unless he thought they did. Similar to pp, the rules didn’t apply to him. Good and bad is meaningless to someone like that, they don’t do things to be good or bad they are motivated purely by self interest. Perfectly law abiding etc.

I can see how he could have been really really fucking awful though if he felt he needed to be to get what he wanted.

About a decade ago I bumped into some school bullies in the pub. They were all "OMG YOU'RE SO FUNNY, WHY WEREN'T WE FRIENDS AT SCHOOL??!" I was like "Erm because you used to pick on me at school?". They seemed genuinely baffled.

Another bully from school was bullied herself by older women at her first job. She used to post things like "How could anyone treat another person like this for no reason?" on Facebook.

I was not nice to a couple of people at school myself and I feel absolutely terrible about it. There was no excuse and I wish I could apologise to them. So I guess it depends on the person. I try to be self aware and I carry a lot of guilt about my mistakes.

I don't think they think in those terms at all tbh, because they tend to be very self focused, lacking in empathy, so not that concerned with what other people think or feel. They might argue they are good people if that was necessary, to impress a date, get a job, keep social connections, but it wouldn't be something that would occupy much headspace, as their focus is their own needs, preferences and opinions not other peoples.