To wonder if people who are objectively bad people know they’re bad, or if they’re just delusional?

I know three objectively bad people. They use the Jimmy Saville balance sheet method for considering themselves a good guy. Jimmy Saville did all of that charity work so that on balance he could consider himself a good guy. They are always deluded.

People find ways to justify all of those things to themselves though.

Emotional abuse and coercive control is particularly easy to justify. They convince themselves they are right to take control because the other person makes bad decisions or is disrespecting them, that shouting and screaming was just a normal couple argument, that the other person is being over-sensitive or dramatic about it.

Hitting dogs (and children) is easily passed off as reasonable punishment for bad behaviour, needed for the purposes of training, and proponents have massive cognitive dissonance around it if they are shown the evidence proving it's harmful.

Telling your teenage niece she's fat is for the good of her health, you're concerned about her.

You didn't screw over a colleague, it was fair competition and they had it coming. You're there to get on in business, not make friends. This is why you're more successful.

They're mostly blinded by greed and selfishness and simply don't give a toss about anyone nor anything else. It's ALL me, me, me! They know exactly what they are but don't care.

Not really. He said, “Well, that [meaning his version of events] is what it seemed like to me!” So sort of vaguely alluding to the possibility that he had it wrong without actually admitting it outright or saying sorry for the false accusations. Which is a pretty classic approach for high-conflict people.

Did he apologize?

There are plenty of objectively bad things not as dramatic as child abuse or murder. Domestic abuse including emotional abuse or coercive control, stealing from a friend, hitting your dog, telling your teenage niece she’s fat, screwing over a colleague etc are all unlikely to make the news but not things that most people do, just a fairly sizeable minority of people.

Unless you're talking about objectively bad things like murder, child abuse etc then it's all subjective and often, traits that you think are bad but aren't necessarily inherently so.

Or traits that you think are bad but don't realise you engage in yourself.

It's a really, really interesting question!
When my ex husband was unfaithful, he convinced himself that I was the problem. It was a way to justify his behaviour and, from what I gather, it's a classic textbook response!
So I'm guessing that this is what they do, almost as a self-preservation thing.

I think for the most part people are a product of their environment. If they have spent their lives being treated badly they will treat others badly. They will know it’s wrong, but can justify it to themselves.

@Guest100 I also think that people who are never expected to take responsibility for their behaviour can end up treating others badly, because they’ve never been held accountable nor expected to apologize for nasty behaviour.

They may not mean to hurt other people, they just do what they like and expect to be forgiven.

I think it’s usually a case of them knowing they’re doing wrong in the eyes of the law or other people but they convince themselves that they’re an exception to the “rules”, usually by way of a victim mentality.

They usually know that what they’re doing is wrong enough to hide it, but even when they get caught they’ll usually try to blame-shift (“I couldn’t tell you because I knew how you’d react!”) or self-justify.

In their eyes they’re overtaxed so it’s fair enough for them to fiddle their expenses and everyone would do it if they were smart enough. They cheated because you were mean or because they were stressed at work and you weren’t putting out enough. They tell you to shut up because you aren’t agreeing with them and they’re sick of “trying to be heard”.

I think there can also be genuine neurological deficiencies like weak memory or lack of empathy. So they make up backstories that fit their idea of themselves as decent people regardless of what actually happened and convince themselves that must be what occurred.

I remember my ex berating me for something he convinced himself I’d done (he’d exaggerated something small and fair into a litany of accusations). He seemed gobsmacked when I could categorically prove him wrong. I don’t know if he was shocked that the evidence let him because he delusionally believed his own story, or if he was just surprised to have been caught red-handed in an outrageous lie.

Or they feel baffled that other people don’t seem to see it as imperative that all their needs are unconditionally met in the same way they do.

I think for the most part people are a product of their environment. If they have spent their lives being treated badly they will treat others badly. They will know it’s wrong, but can justify it to themselves. Some are narcissistic or a psychopath. Kids tend to be bullies if they are bullied at home, sometimes kids will do horrible things because other kids are. I have looked after kids that were lovely, but as soon as they played with a particular child became very nasty little bullies to the other children.

My daughter had a friend when she was younger, this kid was lovely, such a nice kid to have over. It turned out that the kid is a psychopath. I know I will see her on the news one day for doing something truly horrible.

Many years ago when I was trapped in a really toxic difficult relationship with a man who was exploiting me, stealing from me and abusing me etc.

After a few drinks one night he looked at me and said "I know that what I am is a sociopath and yet, even knowing that, I can't stop myself being the way I am so I thought I might as well enjoy it and profit from it."

This is a really interesting post. Thank you.

Own your flaws, or never know yourself.

I think its complicated and depends on person.

In my past I was chaotic. All of my hurt I directed to myself. I had no idea/ insight that my actions were inadvertently impacting those around me and bystanders. I was oblivious.
It was selfishness in my case.
Like for example, when your having a bad day, something breaks, you fall over then your car breaks down. Your overwhelmed with your unfortunate circumstances. When so and so asks something mundane and you don't realise your snappy. You don't realise because your focused on your bad day, but who you snapped at was having a worse day and their dog died. You were inadvertently selfish and hurt them as you didn't noticed they had been crying or bother to ask them or think about them..you remain oblivious over what happened until you reflect later on or hear from someone else.

In my DH case he will turn everything on it being someone/something else to blame and he's a victim.
He struggles with accountability and can't see other people's perspective and accept it differs from his own. Because he can't see his part in situations or accept other perspectives therefore he is right and they are wrong.

In both our scenarios we act badly and are mean. But there is no ill intent or insight. In my case insight happened on reflection but that was later on and needed outside input from others to enable me to be accountable.

With psychopathy they can't experience empathy so only know right and wrong like a ticking boxes exercise but due to having no emotions in regards to it. It's all null and void and just doesn't matter either way. So I guess it's reduced to what potential consequences serves them better. Killing this person to get xyz or not get xyz..they really want xyz so it's worth it. There are functioning psychopaths which I describe as not so impulsive so prison consequences would be factored in..whereas the psychopaths in prison are more instant gratification and impulsive.

Narcissists and sociopaths feel positive feelings (power/pleasure) hurting others. So where logically they know it's wrong, they essentially get rewarded in their acts as they feel good. So to them it's not bad. Hurting others is a necessary consequence to them feeling happy.

Psychopaths Narcissists etc have ill intent from the get go.

In my experience, a lot of people who routinely treat others badly, take advantage of others, bully, coercively control, etc. believe/have convinced themselves that the other person/people don't really mind. If they did, they wouldn't put up with it, right?

A surprising number of people genuinely don't think about the wants or needs of their partners, friends, family, even their young children. They go for exactly what is easiest and most comfortable for themselves and don't even think about who it hurts (even if they themselves would HATE it and consider it incredibly unfair if things were reversed) because it's up to the other person to represent THEIR own interests and push equally hard if they want something different. Everything is win-lose, zero-sum, and combative, never caring or cooperative or a willing compromise.

Really interesting thread. I’ve only been close to one person like this: my mother, who I’m certain is a “vulnerable narcissist”. From what I observed she was definitely delusional— terrifyingly so, inasmuch as she couldn’t accept any blame even when she’d said or done something undeniably awful. She experienced trauma and neglect as a child and I think this led her to develop the ability to deny reality as a coping mechanism. I’ve never known her to admit to her mistakes and she will always cast herself as the victim of any situation. Throughout my childhood she lied to me about all kinds of things then flatly denied them — I can see why these people are so good at gaslighting because they’re able to convince themselves that whatever they say is true. Once I realised this about her, I calmly called her out on it and she looked terrified, like she’d been found out. I realised then that while there was a flicker of awareness, facing up to her flaws was so frightening and shame-inducing that she’d rather do anything to escape having to do this, even if it meant losing contact with me and my kids. I think fear and shame run deep in many narcissists, so delusion is a way of coping with this.

Think it depends … obviously some people are narcissists and I think they honestly believe that they can justify their poor behaviours and lies.

I think everyone can do bad things, but yes some people do seem to continue set patterns of behaviour. Personally I have found men don't "dwell" on anything they have done - they rarely reflect. Sadly this is why I suspect so many of them repeat relationships over and over with different women and never feel any real depth.

I think it's a mix, OP.

There are definitely people who fool themselves. They are awful manipulators or whatever, but lack any insight.

There are also people who know they are doing things wrong, having a bad effect on those around them, but can't seem to get a hold of their lives. They continuously make selfish decisions. They often don't feel good about themselves and look for ways to escape - addicts in my experience are often like this.

A few people know they are objectively bad, but don't care. They don't have normal moral qualms.

I used to have a person close to me who was like that a bit. He had some moral standards, but not much ability to empathize (other than with a very few people, like his immediate family.) Essentially, he had no empathy or ability to empathize. He would try and live up to his own standards of right and wrong, but he did not feel at all bad about doing something that he did not think he had an obligation to do. He knew this was not necessarily considered socially normal though and kept it to himself. Some people I think are very much like this but also have even less of a sense of obligation.

Nobody is all good or all bad.

I've certainly reflected on things I've done in the past that have hurt others. Doesn't make me good or bad.

I'm sure I once read even psychopaths are not all bad. Don't quote me on that though, I believe I've met one and he was a shell of a person, seemed nothing but hateful. I wouldn't get close enough to one to find out.

Yes, I think often people who behave terribly think everyone else is doing the same, or would do if they had the guts, and they are just playing the game and doing what they have to to survive/get ahead.

If there is one thing that I have learnt in my 60 years, it's that people can justify any behaviour to themselves.
They paint the picture that they want to see, facts being sometimes completely irrelevant.

You shouldn't underestimate the number of people who are eaten up with self-loathing.

Do they know they are horrible people? I once waited till I was outside walking down the street with my abusive ex (knew he wouldn't be able to react badly in public) and said to him, "I hope that when your daughter grows up she meets a man just like you." Dear reader, you have never seen a look of such hatred as he directed at me. He knew exactly what he was and me seeing that he knew it gave me a tiny bit of satisfaction.