To think parents shouldn’t bring toddlers to fancy restaurants?

Owners choice and preference, I would think...

I think the idea of Pizza Express etc. being a training ground is not because poor behaviour flies there, it isn’t acceptable anywhere (!), but because the menu is child friendly and the service is fast. You can be in and out having had 2 courses that you know the kids will eat in about an hour. So only if you know your kid(s) can comfortably manage that do you want to push it and take them somewhere with a more challenging menu that will require them to sit for 2+ hours. We did loads of ‘fast casual’ dining when the kids were small. Then by the time they were preschoolers nice restaurants weren’t an issue, because they’d built up to it gradually. It’s not really the table manners or trying stuff- that stuff can be taught at home. It’s more the waiting and the sitting for hours that can be an issue for under 5s if they’re not used to it. Hence start with pizza express which you know will be pretty quick, build up to longer meals! And to reiterate any bad behaviour and you leave. Which is less of an issue when you’ve left a couple of slices of your American Hot vs. if you’re only 2 courses into a £200 pp tasting menu…

People of any age should only be allowed in restaurants if they can behave themselves.

On multiple occasions, we've had to leave fancyish restaurants or high end gastropubs with our son. Not because he was a problem, but because diners at other tables were drunkenly shouting and laughing at top volume, swearing constantly and often having inappropriate or bigoted conversations. And these were your stereotypical old money posh middle aged people, not young and loaded social media influencer types. And it was either lunchtime or around 5-6pm so not exactly inappropriate for a child to be present.

In contrast, we've never had to leave a restaurant because of our son's behaviour 🤷‍♀️

I agree with this. The notion that, say, a 6 year old can't learn a new skill is bonkers. In any case, if you enforce good manners at home and in public places generally, it's not even a new skill.

Also quite unpleasant is the notion that Pizza Express etc is a sort of training ground. Plenty of people can't afford more expensive restaurants, don't they deserve a relaxing meal out?

I was anti children before being pregnant but even then couldn't care less as long as the child behaves.

If they are quiet why does it concern you? I'm genuinely curious to know!

Potato 😂😂😂

You are right if they struggle you can’t inflict it on others. My point was slightly different in that I think most children will do pretty well with it provided they have been going since they were babies.

Me and my partner are child free. We just try and choose adult only venues or eat later to avoid the noise and potential disruption caused by kids. 🤷🏼‍♀️ we usually book tables after 7

I definitely understand eating out when on holiday (we have) but not at a fancy restaurant, that can still wait until a child is able to behave appropriately - children can still be taught to behave well in Pizza Express, but without spoiling special meal for others if they struggle.

I do agree that if you take them young, one or other of the parents has to be prepared to leave if it all goes tits-up.

Some people will give you the whole “kids are humans too” but I’d definitely be selective where I take my two year old to eat. I also have a brother who is think twice about taking to a “posh” restaurant. Some settings aren’t for everyone.

Why worry about things that don’t actually happen?

But the issue is if you know you are going to want to take them when they are little (so, for instance, on family holidays where you may not want to use a hotel babysitter), you can’t so easily wait until they are 10.

In these circumstances it’s really only fair on everyone to have them learning early so they understand by osmosis how to do it, rather than waiting until they are old enough to explain it, or expecting them to suddenly grasp it only when you suddenly need them to. Obviously algebra requires quite a lot of mathematical concepts; learning that you sit still and quietly at a table is more a behavioural skill that children do pick up by observation and practice and a reinforcing home routine, rather than an explanation.

But if we had a travelling nanny I might consider waiting for a big chat about “what is expected of you” and you are right that they’d probably grasp it all first time.

To me I think the problems come when young children are being asked to depart from their normal routine. Babies are normally actually very good in those circumstances. The tricky age is about 18 months I think.

There are trade-offs involved in choosing to be a parent.

Giving up nice dinners for a few years (or budgeting for babysitting) is one of them. It's so selfish to spoil the atmosphere for other patrons.

‘Peace and quiet’

well behaved toddlers (and adults) fine

Uncontrollled toddlers (and adults) - not.

Yeah was definitely easier to take my son out when he was basically a potato. Just fed him to sleep and enjoy dinner.
Currently only take him somewhere during the day when quiet.

I always brought mine with me pretty much from day 1. They never acted up because 9 times out of 10 they were engaged with the staff or the venue.

They both like nice food and were quite capable of sitting, chatting, the odd puzzle book or rubix cube was in my bag.

The older one loves to cook and is vegan the younger one still loves his food and applies high standards toy attempts 😉

That’s simply just not right.
Our children are well behaved and have always gone to beautiful restaurants, including many Michelin starred ones around the world.
They love the food and we’ve always had rules about sitting down, no screens at the table etc.
If they were misbehaviour at all, we would’ve immediately removed them
We would always bring a book or a colouring pad and set of pens.
I have had more meals, and plane trips in business class, ruined by drunk adults than by kids

Generally the parents annoy me more than the children. They're either performance parents, announcing everything very loudly so that everyone knows what perfect parents they are and that everything is an educational lesson, or ineffective parents with screaming (as in the stupid shriek, not a sad baby) kids running around or staring at a blaring iPad.

It was impossible to say something as we were sat literally a few inches away from the couple and child. The woman and I were virtually in each other’s laps, which was why it was all so uncomfortable. These waiting staff are very well trained and I’d have expected them to be a bit more intuitive.

Anyway, since then I specify on bookings that we want a quiet table.

I think the toddler stage is the worst one tbh as they’re so unpredictable and there’s not much they can do quietly for several hours. Babies can be breastfed to sleep and slightly older children can do colouring as mine used to, but three hours in a restaurant at about 18 months old, is, I think, a recipe for disaster. And every time they took him for a wander, he was in the way of staff and imposing on other tables.

If kids are well behaved at a different table, why does it matter other parents have made a different choice to you? I don't understand why children should be banned? What children should be is well behaved in these sorts of settings, actually all restaurants to be honest. Teach them to sit nicely at home and you don't have any problems

Fair enough, I was just thinking it may have been better to have quietly said something during so they could have discretely asked the couple to keep it down or take the baby outside as it was disturbing other guests.
I think if a customer had said something to me when I was a server after the fact I would have been a bit like ok? Sorry about that? But not much else.

Absolutely this!! I would rather keep the fancy restaurant for date nights, and take my LO to the family friendly places

Why ever not? My little Tarquin has been eating at Michelin restaurants since he was 2 days old. We simply get him to do a bit of light reading to keep him quiet, War and Peace usually does it.

What do you mean by 'fancy'?