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To want a way to label the reasonable fear of the variety of Islam that wishes to impose Sharia law?

492 replies

Oodiks · 22/11/2024 19:40

I understand that there are different sects within Islam and that while some pose no concerns, others do. I am horrified at the type of Sharia law imposed in Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Afghanistan, which denies women human rights, but it's hard to talk about those reasonable fears without being labelled Islamophobic. It's not unreasonable to fear a religion that imposes such harsh lives on women.

OP posts:
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quantumbutterfly · 26/11/2024 11:05

AmadeustheAlpaca · 26/11/2024 11:00

No one has answered my question about what positive things Islam has done for women. It's just endless posts abut how evil Christian culture is. What has the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy got to do with anything?

Man's relation to god and self destructive tendencies.

AmadeustheAlpaca · 26/11/2024 11:00

No one has answered my question about what positive things Islam has done for women. It's just endless posts abut how evil Christian culture is. What has the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy got to do with anything?

quantumbutterfly · 26/11/2024 11:00

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 26/11/2024 10:55

These were not examples of incitement but examples of how Christianity is inextricably woven into the views of the far right, which is in fact the fastest growing terror threat in the U.K.

If you count jihadists as far right I might agree with you, violent extremists are never a useful addition to society.

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 26/11/2024 10:55

quantumbutterfly · 26/11/2024 10:52

Sounds pretty mild. I think if I were to print what Islamists in 'western' countries say in their rhetoric it would be condemned as hate speech.

Btw, which countries would you list as western?

These were not examples of incitement but examples of how Christianity is inextricably woven into the views of the far right, which is in fact the fastest growing terror threat in the U.K.

quantumbutterfly · 26/11/2024 10:52

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 26/11/2024 10:45

These are worth a read…
Reform UK: The Best Option for British Christians

”I am, of course, referring to Nigel Farage and his Reform UK party.
Farage himself was, until recently, a practicing if not particularly devout member of the Church of England, though he announced as recently as March of this year that he has stopped attending its services due to the embrace of woke ideology among its clergy. Despite that disillusionment, Farage insists that “We are a Christian country with a Christian constitution and a Christian monarch,” and “I absolutely believe in Christian values that have made this country great.”

“He has even argued that British immigration policy should favor Christians over non-Christians—a rather commonsense implication of the belief in Christian society found not only in Catholic doctrine but in the traditional beliefs of both Eastern Orthodoxy and Protestantism. That border control and prudence in allowing migration are not just permitted by but required by Christian belief has itself been demonstrated so often that I will not belabor the point.”
https://crisismagazine.com/opinion/reform-uk-the-best-option-for-british-christians

https://www.christianvoice.org.uk/index.php/nigel-farage-what-does-the-lord-say/

Sounds pretty mild. I think if I were to print what Islamists in 'western' countries say in their rhetoric it would be condemned as hate speech.

Btw, which countries would you list as western?

Whatsinanamehey · 26/11/2024 10:51

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Auvergne63 · 26/11/2024 10:50

quantumbutterfly · 26/11/2024 10:13

That was sarcasm incidentally, (which the authorities of low wit tell me is the lowest, though I would argue that it ranks above dad jokes and slapstick, but taste is a subjective thing.)

which the authorities of low wit tell me is the lowest
In this case, Oscar Wilde was/is, unarguably, one of the most renowned authority on witticism, hence his quote on sarcasm. Nice slight dig at me, by the way.
One of my favourite quote of his ( and quite apt here imo) is "“I may not agree with you, but I will defend to the death your right to make an ass of yourself.”

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 26/11/2024 10:50

PurpleChrayn · 26/11/2024 10:37

Fear of being labelled Islamophobic is partly to blame for my current fear of leaving the house as a visibly Jewish family. Baked into mainstream Islam is a deep-seated antisemitism that Western liberals don't seem to want to acknowledge.

Pretty much there is a round robin of antipathy between the three religions. Unfortunately Jewish people being the minority of the three have been the ones who have lost the most and suffered the most globally at the hands of Christians and Muslims.

quantumbutterfly · 26/11/2024 10:45

PurpleChrayn · 26/11/2024 10:37

Fear of being labelled Islamophobic is partly to blame for my current fear of leaving the house as a visibly Jewish family. Baked into mainstream Islam is a deep-seated antisemitism that Western liberals don't seem to want to acknowledge.

A fact I am very aware of.

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 26/11/2024 10:45

These are worth a read…
Reform UK: The Best Option for British Christians

”I am, of course, referring to Nigel Farage and his Reform UK party.
Farage himself was, until recently, a practicing if not particularly devout member of the Church of England, though he announced as recently as March of this year that he has stopped attending its services due to the embrace of woke ideology among its clergy. Despite that disillusionment, Farage insists that “We are a Christian country with a Christian constitution and a Christian monarch,” and “I absolutely believe in Christian values that have made this country great.”

“He has even argued that British immigration policy should favor Christians over non-Christians—a rather commonsense implication of the belief in Christian society found not only in Catholic doctrine but in the traditional beliefs of both Eastern Orthodoxy and Protestantism. That border control and prudence in allowing migration are not just permitted by but required by Christian belief has itself been demonstrated so often that I will not belabor the point.”
https://crisismagazine.com/opinion/reform-uk-the-best-option-for-british-christians

https://www.christianvoice.org.uk/index.php/nigel-farage-what-does-the-lord-say/

username8348 · 26/11/2024 10:42

quantumbutterfly · 26/11/2024 10:41

So you're talking about USA not UK now.

I'm talking about the rise of the far right in the West which includes both countries.

quantumbutterfly · 26/11/2024 10:41

username8348 · 26/11/2024 10:40

As far as I'm concerned Islamic extremism and far right extremism are similar. In fact many of the Jan 6 insurrectionists admire the Taliban and were photoshopping themselves next to the Taliban fighters on social media.

Edited

So you're talking about USA not UK now.

username8348 · 26/11/2024 10:40

quantumbutterfly · 26/11/2024 10:35

Is everyone who harms social cohesion using a veneer of religion on the far right?

As far as I'm concerned Islamic extremism and far right extremism are similar. In fact many of the Jan 6 insurrectionists admire the Taliban and were photoshopping themselves next to the Taliban fighters on social media.

PurpleChrayn · 26/11/2024 10:37

Fear of being labelled Islamophobic is partly to blame for my current fear of leaving the house as a visibly Jewish family. Baked into mainstream Islam is a deep-seated antisemitism that Western liberals don't seem to want to acknowledge.

quantumbutterfly · 26/11/2024 10:35

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 26/11/2024 10:32

https://www.theosthinktank.co.uk/comment/2020/10/27/churches-and-the-rise-of-the-far-right

“…far–right protesters descended on Dover, with shouts and flags, singing ‘Rule Britannia’ to rally against migrants arriving on British shores. Far from a unique incident, the demonstrations in Dover attest to the rise of the far right across Europe. Both far–right protesters and far–right politicans stir up hate against Muslims and migrants. How have churches responded?It could be argued that churches have nothing to do with the far right. But for anyone who has kept an eye on the far right during the last decades, it is clear that Christianity is claimed in both its propaganda and its practice.”

The OP is an example of this bit:

“The scenario of a battle for Europe, sketched in online statements and offline speeches, revolves around what scholars have called ‘new racism’. Since the 1970s and 80s, the far right has shifted from colour–coded (‘racial’) rhetoric to culture–coded (‘religious’) rhetoric to stir up hate. In the battle scenario of the far right, the two religions are markers of inheritance and identity, but Christianity is interpreted as democratic, tolerant and respectful of human rights, while Islam is interpreted as undemocratic, intolerant and disrespectful of human rights.”

“For the far right, people are trapped by their religions. It’s not them choosing ‘their’ religion, but ‘their’ religion chosing them – and all that comes with it. The consequence is clear. Far–right terrorist Anders Behring Breivik, who killed seventy–seven people in Norway in 2011, saw himself as ‘a supporter of a monocultural Christian Europe’. In his warped worldview, the people he killed had aided and abetted the ‘Islamisation’ of Europe. But the theological trap of new racism can be found in far less extreme forms and far less explicit formats.”

Is everyone who harms social cohesion using a veneer of religion on the far right?

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 26/11/2024 10:34

quantumbutterfly · 26/11/2024 10:32

Is everyone who harms social cohesion using a veneer of religion on the far right?

No.

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 26/11/2024 10:32

https://www.theosthinktank.co.uk/comment/2020/10/27/churches-and-the-rise-of-the-far-right

“…far–right protesters descended on Dover, with shouts and flags, singing ‘Rule Britannia’ to rally against migrants arriving on British shores. Far from a unique incident, the demonstrations in Dover attest to the rise of the far right across Europe. Both far–right protesters and far–right politicans stir up hate against Muslims and migrants. How have churches responded?It could be argued that churches have nothing to do with the far right. But for anyone who has kept an eye on the far right during the last decades, it is clear that Christianity is claimed in both its propaganda and its practice.”

The OP is an example of this bit:

“The scenario of a battle for Europe, sketched in online statements and offline speeches, revolves around what scholars have called ‘new racism’. Since the 1970s and 80s, the far right has shifted from colour–coded (‘racial’) rhetoric to culture–coded (‘religious’) rhetoric to stir up hate. In the battle scenario of the far right, the two religions are markers of inheritance and identity, but Christianity is interpreted as democratic, tolerant and respectful of human rights, while Islam is interpreted as undemocratic, intolerant and disrespectful of human rights.”

“For the far right, people are trapped by their religions. It’s not them choosing ‘their’ religion, but ‘their’ religion chosing them – and all that comes with it. The consequence is clear. Far–right terrorist Anders Behring Breivik, who killed seventy–seven people in Norway in 2011, saw himself as ‘a supporter of a monocultural Christian Europe’. In his warped worldview, the people he killed had aided and abetted the ‘Islamisation’ of Europe. But the theological trap of new racism can be found in far less extreme forms and far less explicit formats.”

Churches and the rise of the Far Right

Churches must not be neutral in the face of anti–Muslim and anti–migrant fearmongering, argue Ulrich Schmiedel and Hannah Strømmen.

https://www.theosthinktank.co.uk/comment/2020/10/27/churches-and-the-rise-of-the-far-right

quantumbutterfly · 26/11/2024 10:32

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 26/11/2024 10:27

Is everyone who harms social cohesion using a veneer of religion on the far right?

quantumbutterfly · 26/11/2024 10:24

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 26/11/2024 10:23

These days incitement to and instructions on how to get away with religious hate crime is over social media instead of from the pulpit:

“An X user who encouraged his 98,000 followers to join violent protests and instructed them on how to avoid being identified by police was jailed for three years at Lincoln Crown Court.
Wayne O’Rourke, 35, pleaded guilty to stirring up racial hatred by publishing material on his social media account between July 28 and August 8.
O’Rourke, who is a full-time carer for his partner, posted on July 29, the day three girls were killed in a knife attack in Southport: “Today was a terror attack by a Muslim … heads must roll.”
The court heard he made another post which told followers: “Leave your phones at home, wear balaclavas, plain clothes and nothing to identify you by. Use cash.” This was seen by more than 99,000 people.”

Oh yeah, he sounds like he's motivated by Christianity. 🤔

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 26/11/2024 10:23

quantumbutterfly · 26/11/2024 10:16

I expect their vicar incited them with a bit of old school fire & brimstone preaching.

These days incitement to and instructions on how to get away with religious hate crime is over social media instead of from the pulpit:

“An X user who encouraged his 98,000 followers to join violent protests and instructed them on how to avoid being identified by police was jailed for three years at Lincoln Crown Court.
Wayne O’Rourke, 35, pleaded guilty to stirring up racial hatred by publishing material on his social media account between July 28 and August 8.
O’Rourke, who is a full-time carer for his partner, posted on July 29, the day three girls were killed in a knife attack in Southport: “Today was a terror attack by a Muslim … heads must roll.”
The court heard he made another post which told followers: “Leave your phones at home, wear balaclavas, plain clothes and nothing to identify you by. Use cash.” This was seen by more than 99,000 people.”

quantumbutterfly · 26/11/2024 10:22

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 26/11/2024 10:16

Exactly.

I think you may need to read more. Admittedly we do celebrate burning traitors every November in the UK, but only metaphorically and there are usually fireworks too. The bin rolling thing isn't traditional either, usually it's cheese, or occasionally shopping trollies.

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 26/11/2024 10:16

username8348 · 26/11/2024 10:11

They see themselves as defending Christianity and preserving Western culture.

Exactly.

quantumbutterfly · 26/11/2024 10:16

I expect their vicar incited them with a bit of old school fire & brimstone preaching.

quantumbutterfly · 26/11/2024 10:14

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 26/11/2024 10:11

Yeah, they were Christians.

Of course they were, in church every Sunday I expect & prayers every bedtime bless 'em.