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To want a way to label the reasonable fear of the variety of Islam that wishes to impose Sharia law?

492 replies

Oodiks · 22/11/2024 19:40

I understand that there are different sects within Islam and that while some pose no concerns, others do. I am horrified at the type of Sharia law imposed in Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Afghanistan, which denies women human rights, but it's hard to talk about those reasonable fears without being labelled Islamophobic. It's not unreasonable to fear a religion that imposes such harsh lives on women.

OP posts:
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BobbyBiscuits · 23/11/2024 10:49

I guess the way I see it is they wouldn't be able to get away with trying to impose anything even resembling Sharia law in the UK. I feel the majority of British Muslims want to live peacefully alongside non believers. I would never ever travel to Saudi, Iran etc. it must be hell on earth for women in those strict countries.

Slowwly · 23/11/2024 10:44

SerendipityJane · 23/11/2024 10:41

Since that has already happened though, we are where we are.

Yes. I think it’s a real shame. Stops proper discussion.

Slowwly · 23/11/2024 10:44

I do feel uncomfortable in orthodox religious settings. I am not sure why. I have been to weddings from all the major religions. When they have been in especially orthodox settings, I have felt nervous. I think it is to do with feeling judged somehow. But that’s clearly my issue, not the religions’.

SerendipityJane · 23/11/2024 10:44

Lots of Muslim people dislike dogs,

To be fair, a lot of non muslims also dislike dogs* - I wouldn't rely on it as a defining characteristic.

*As pets - no issue with working dogs.

SerendipityJane · 23/11/2024 10:41

Slowwly · 23/11/2024 10:36

We need to use words like Islamophobia, antisemitism, transphobia, homophobia, racism etc carefully. Otherwise they become meaningless and people stop listening.

Since that has already happened though, we are where we are.

Kendodd · 23/11/2024 10:37

Itwasnttrue · 23/11/2024 10:05

There is a way to label it surely - isn't it just "Fear of religious extremism" ?

Except Islam is especially feared.
I could burn a bible or Torah without fear. I could do a stand up comedy routine ridiculing Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism etc. I wouldn't dare do the same for Islam. A teacher can't even discuss a set of cartoons offensive to Muslims in a classroom with having to go into hiding with his family afterwards due to credible death threats.

Slowwly · 23/11/2024 10:36

AfterMJ · 23/11/2024 08:45

Islamophobia is the same as transphobia these days, just a way to shut down debate around issues that affect women

In my area recently there was a protest outside the home of a Muslim family who kept a puppy in the back garden 24/7 with nothing but a small wooden kennel and wet blankets. Dog shit everywhere. Never allowed in the house
RSPCA wouldn't do anything so a peaceful protest happened.

I was there from start to finish (when thw police seized the dog)

Next day there were multiple people saying it was islamaphobic, that people were chanting racist things, that the family were physically attacked and that the only reason so many people were there is because they hate Muslims 🤔

Non of that happened.

It was an animal welfare issue.

The same happens whenever anyone tries to discuss the parking outside mosque, it's suddenly about islamophobia and people wouldn't complain if it was a Christian church 🤔

Of course they would because it's about the cars on narrow roads not the ethnicity of thw people driving!

It just seems to me that tou can't make any justified criticism of Muslims now without being called racist

Edited

We need to use words like Islamophobia, antisemitism, transphobia, homophobia, racism etc carefully. Otherwise they become meaningless and people stop listening.

Slowwly · 23/11/2024 10:34

Kendodd · 23/11/2024 08:00

I watched some of the hate filled 'British Police, go to Hell' 'UK got to Hell' demo Stacey Dooley covered. What I would like to know are where are the counter demonstrations? Why aren't the non extremist Muslims out on the streets 'not in my name' outnumbering them? These people are allowed to be the mouth piece of Islam and are dragging its name through the dirt. They do a lot more damage to the image of Islam than some cartoons do. Why aren't ordinary Muslims up in arms about demos like this and things like death threats to teachers. Why aren't they out on the streets having none of it?

Those people are not my responsibility. I don’t want to put myself at risk from them. In any case, I have never gone on a protest march in 55 years and don’t intend to start now. It is not my fault these thick extremists are spouting hate. Don’t blame me.

Slowwly · 23/11/2024 10:30

crouchendtigerr · 23/11/2024 01:49

I am an Indian woman affected by this. I live in a predominantly Muslim area, try to just live my life. But, I am targeted by my neighbours. I have been the victim of harassment, for over a decade. Old harassing neighbours move out, new people move in and continue it. I have discovered there are a few families who lead the harassment against me but try to keep hidden. My next door neighbours were outside discussing with a Muslim man about the problem being that I "don't follow the culture and act like English people". This justifies their targeting of me apparently.

I'm just here living my life, single parent with hobbies and two large dogs - which they absolutely hate, and is now the main aim for them after all other avenues failed. They have reported me for dog noise, my dogs are very well trained, all their needs are met, they are not reactive, and very quiet considering they are working line German shepherds. I know their noise complaint will fail, I'm sure they know it too. So now they have begun trying to hit my car, and run me over.
So while many Muslims will say they don't want shariah law in the UK, there is definite harassment of women like me which goes mostly unnoticed. What makes it worse for me, is that I am stubborn, and fight back, strong, independent and confident.

Lots of Muslim people dislike dogs, think they are unclean etc. But frankly, that’s tough. This is a country of dog-lovers, and if they are well-trained like yours, then these idiots need to shut up.

I am so sorry they are physically threatening you. That’s terrifying. How are you supposed to fight back against a car. Appalling. I assume police are not interested..

SerendipityJane · 23/11/2024 10:30

I don't know why the Muslim religion attracts so many extremists...because on its own it's peaceful religion.

And Christianity ???

Tropicana46 · 23/11/2024 10:26

Mittens67 · 22/11/2024 19:45

Completely agree. Not just fear, actively dislike.
I detest all religions and the awful treatment of women with varying levels of control and abuse appalls me.

Same. I absolutely detest religion. Most of the religious people I've met are hypocritical self serving arseholes who just use their religion and cherry picked quotes from their books of fairy stories to push their own agendas.

I know a couple of religious people (Christians) who truly are inspirational and it baffles me that two intelligent, successful and seemingly reasonable women can just blindly believe in this but hey that's a whole other discussion.

quantumbutterfly · 23/11/2024 10:22

LoremIpsumCici · 22/11/2024 22:00

Actually most migrants to the U.K. are Christians.
ONS response to a FOIA on it for 2022

top 3:

219,017 Christians
152,933 No religion
74,218 Muslim

Ratio is 3 Christians immigrating to the U.K. for every 1 Muslim.

Are you confusing Roman Catholicism and Christianity in general?

In the UK the monarch is the head of faiths, for Roman Catholics world wide traditionally the pope was the head of the church, it caused a lot of bloodshed historically, as power struggles often do.

Skepticgal · 23/11/2024 10:19

Clutterchaos · 22/11/2024 20:23

What are your reasons for this fear? I've never met a muslim in this country that would like to apply sharia law. In the same way I do not come across many extremely orthodox Christians or Jews in this country. We are a fairly Liberal country.

This really. Extremist religion of all shades is scary, but luckily it's a minority thing in our part of the world.

Hoppinggreen · 23/11/2024 10:15

Perhaps "fear of extremism" would suffice?
No need to reference any particular religion but any use of "phobia" isn't appropriate as it suggests an irrational fear and fear of extremism whatever the claimed motivation isn't irrational

hazelnutvanillalatte · 23/11/2024 10:11

This reply has been deleted

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Pussycat22 · 23/11/2024 10:07

Mittens67, all forms of control and money raising aren't they.

Itwasnttrue · 23/11/2024 10:05

There is a way to label it surely - isn't it just "Fear of religious extremism" ?

Slowwly · 23/11/2024 10:04

Twoddleknock · 22/11/2024 23:48

I think unless you live in an area, such as some in London whereby 70%+ of the population is a Muslim and it’s almost unliveable as a white, non Muslim then it’s hard to understand this. Its all well and good the leftie luvvies sitting in a townhouse in Islington or similar saying we should all just love each other, whilst they don’t have to face any of the day to day issues of being a working class person forced out of their own area / schools / community. It’s sad, it really is.

I live in an area in London which is almost 50% Jewish. Shops shut on the sabbath, there is only kosher food etc. it bothers me not one bit. I enjoy the food, and get on with my neighbours. When they were young, a huge percentage of my kids’ friends were off school for Jewish holidays. It helped them learn about other cultures and religions and they experienced amazing bar and bat mitzvahs.

I have never felt forced out or that the area is unliveable because of a religious majority.

I think integration and learning the language is important (a philosophy that the Brits in Spain should adopt), but tolerance and learning is also vital. It can work but takes effort on both sides.

Kendodd · 23/11/2024 10:03

1WanderingWomble · 23/11/2024 09:54

As much as I support those counter-protests, that doesn't really support your argument. Those were antiracism, not anti-Islamic extremism protests. Which suggests a definite selectivity. Maybe because of intimidation or not wanting to appear divided as a Muslim community, I don't know.

If you're a Muslim though, why wouldn't you want to be 'divided' from Islamic extremists? I get intimidation might be a factor, in that they're too scared of these nutcases themselves (with very good reason) to speak out against them.

quantumbutterfly · 23/11/2024 10:02

Womblingmerrily · 22/11/2024 21:04

This is Stacey Dooley's visit back to her home town in Luton.

I think this demonstrates that there is something to fear from fundamentalist Islam in the UK.

I fear it. It really depends where you live, but if you live in an area that has a large and growing population of people who believe in a fundamentalist form of Islam then I think this represents a danger to some women in that area who are seen in a negative way and can be subject to insults and intimidation particularly from young men and women who have been taught they are trash, as seen in this video where Stacey is insulted and intimidated by individuals.

Edited

Really interesting programme, thanks.

bluefingertips · 23/11/2024 09:57

soupfiend · 22/11/2024 19:45

Surely its not the religion you 'fear' (which is a strange term to use anyway, but I'll go with it), but the regime or implementation of laws/rules within a country

And who cares if you're 'labelled' this phobic or that phobic, Ive long since past caring about being called phobic or 'ist', its just a way to shut people up.

I dont have time for any regime, culture, religion, creed, race, political viewpoint, whatever, that wants to run an inhumane system.

Because these are religious theocracies whose rule of law, and implementation of law, is based in the religion.

1WanderingWomble · 23/11/2024 09:54

Completelyjo · 23/11/2024 08:35

@Kendodd Why aren't ordinary Muslims up in arms about demos like this and things like death threats to teachers. Why aren't they out on the streets having none of it?

People have jobs and lives to hold down. How often do they need to protest in order for it to be counted?
There were numerous counter protests in the wake of the violence that sprung off the back of Southport tragedy.
Walthamstow in particular had a large one, as did other areas in and outside London.

As much as I support those counter-protests, that doesn't really support your argument. Those were antiracism, not anti-Islamic extremism protests. Which suggests a definite selectivity. Maybe because of intimidation or not wanting to appear divided as a Muslim community, I don't know.

Completelyjo · 23/11/2024 09:41

PaterPower · 23/11/2024 09:35

Are they though (“free to take part”)?

If you’re a Muslim woman and insist on taking your divorce through the legal system, (because you’re, rightly, very wary / sceptical of what sort of ‘justice’ a sharia council will grant you), then you’re going to face a huge amount of criticism, even ostracism from within your wider family and community.

That’s an awful lot of pressure for anyone to face down, particularly where they’re already on the back foot, purely because of their sex.

Oh I agree, but the alternative is someone not being able to practice their religion which doesn’t work either All we can really do is offer a secular society by law, with support and legal protections for people outside of their religion and hope that the secular religion penetrates through and limits the control the churches of all faiths have on people.

People talk about “freedom”, in particular Christianity being freeing but they’ve clearly never lived in a religious community. The pressure, the indoctrination and the hold it can have is unbelievable.

But just as we can’t close Christian churches, we can’t ban Sharia councils because people do have the right to practice their religion. People underestimate how much Christian churches play a very similar role to that of a sharia council.

Completelyjo · 23/11/2024 09:35

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 23/11/2024 09:12

‘So much harm has been done by Christianity over the years. In the U.K. it’s evolved but you don’t have to go far back in history to see the harm done.’

Yes, those harms like suppressing concubinage and polygamy, and saying that marriage is a sacrament between one man and one woman, both consenting adults outside dangerous degrees of consanguinity. As for all that promotion of literacy, well, who needs to read and write when you can do chanting? Visiting the sick, giving alms to the poor, establishing hospitals and free schools, campaigning (successfully) against child labour and the slave trade, it’s all just so pernicious and, well, outright ‘harmful’.

‘What did the Romans do for us? ‘

Or locking women up as free labour in laundries, giving - selling babies without mother’s consent to rich Americans, banning contraception, burying dead babies in mass graves or septic tanks, advising women to stay in abusive marriages because it’s shameful to separate and they couldn’t be granted a divorce, banning sex education in schools, mass child sex abuse in schools, children’s homes and wider parishes, moving known child rapists on to new parishes with absolutely zero punishment or communication of their previous crimes where they can go on to more abuse.

But yes put ‘harmful’ in quotes in your little patronising tone.

The church couldn’t possibly be outright ‘harmful’.

PaterPower · 23/11/2024 09:35

Completelyjo · 22/11/2024 20:50

That’s got nothing to do with “law” though.
There’s a Sharia council a handful of minutes from me, if an Islamic couple want them to deal with their divorce that’s on them, it doesn’t infringe in my rights in any way.
Do I disagree with it? To an extent yes because I come from another part of the UK where women would also have to seek advice from the church and the church encouraged them to stay in shitty situations.
Ultimately people are free to take part in a religion of their choosing though whether or not any of us think it’s valid.

Are they though (“free to take part”)?

If you’re a Muslim woman and insist on taking your divorce through the legal system, (because you’re, rightly, very wary / sceptical of what sort of ‘justice’ a sharia council will grant you), then you’re going to face a huge amount of criticism, even ostracism from within your wider family and community.

That’s an awful lot of pressure for anyone to face down, particularly where they’re already on the back foot, purely because of their sex.