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To think that parents cannot leave money to severely disabled offspring free of IHT

335 replies

Noras · 22/11/2024 04:17

Frankly I have been quite upset about farmers kicking up a fuss about IHT when they can transfer 3 million pounds of wealth IHT free and after that it only costs 20% which can be paid over a decade interest free.

As a parent of a disabled adult child I can only transfer one million pounds like anyone else and any unpaid IHT has to be paid over 10 years with 7% interest due.

We have other kids and can’t exclude them from our wills so that eats into the IHT allowance.

My son will struggle to work in any form of paid job.

I was discussing his placement in supported living with a social worker yesterday as a pretty likely destination

His life will inevitably be one of benefits eg universal credit and PIP

We have left % more to him due to his profound needs.

Our combined estate will face IHT charges especially with the fiscal drag.

So through no fault of my son he will live in relative poverty except for what is left after IHT into a vulnerable persons trust.

My son is used to nicer things eg holidays/ clothes etc and has some awareness of his current nicer life style even if he is not that driven by material things.

We would have to deprive ourselves of a decent retirement to ensure he is decently provided for,

I am heart broken to have given birth to someone who will live in relative poverty assuming he has a long life and the monies inherited have to cover say 45/50 years.

I am not the only parent waking up at 3am in fear of their kid’s future it’s a well known thing about parents of kids with disability.

AIBU to think that the Government should allow an IHT allowance for dependants who are classed as high needs eg PIP high or mid levels eg not really able to live independently etc? I can’t believe that they make no allowance in IHT terms for the disabled. As it is his care and needs have been an additional expense to us throughout his life eg 1:1 swimming lessons ,Ed Psych reports, SALT, private OT , personal trainers etc. This always exceeds disability benefits.

OP posts:
ShinyBinLid · 24/11/2024 08:46

Picpac876 · 24/11/2024 03:05

I must admit reading this thread has me slightly confused. I have two relatives with severe disabilities and who have had no family financial contributions and yet are able to afford a decent lifestyle and wouldn't be seen to be living in poverty. Annual holiday, regular haircuts, meals out once a week and coffees etc. One of these being a sibling in a supported living shared accommodation with constant staff presence, the other living in a property themselves with 24/7 1:1. Because they're not able to work they have means tested benefits in addition to PIP. The local council pays for the care and accommodation with a small contribution and then from their benefits they pay the bills and for all other costs.

In fact my sibling had his means tested benefits cut off temporarily as he'd saved too much. Last year he went on an overseas holiday for a week with a 1:1 carer and he pays for various activities, meals out and coffee shop visits, along with a new laptop every few years and tablet. Taxis where necessary, if no driver on duty. I don't begrudge him this at all, as it does come with many limitations, but I definitely wouldn't say he lives in abject poverty.

In many respects he's more financially secure than other mildy disabled family members who have very limited qualifications and struggle to get a job above minimum wage and haven't been on holiday since before covid. They have enough to get by, but require family support financially.

I think my sibling with the more severe disabilities has a better life in supported living. Support workers whose jobs are literally there to support him, whether that be through cooking assistance, laundry guidance, supporting him with social activities and food shopping. He's become more independent and had so many more opportunities. Back when he lived at home he wasn't able to go on holiday or out as much, as there just wasn't the funding or support.

I agree. When I worked at a supported housing service the residents had more disposible income than I did working there on minimum wage. I don't begrudge this at all and think good state support should be available to all.

Which means taxing those who can afford it, which includes large inherited estates. Trying to avoid this is essentially taking money from the communal pot and saying you think you/your children deserve better at the expense of others.

Noras · 24/11/2024 08:34

Make the farm worth 4 million.

OP posts:
Noras · 24/11/2024 08:34

Here’s an illustration

im a wealthy banker and I decide to buy a farm worth say 2 million pounds whilst having my large pension and also other investments in AIM stock.

Pre budget

My 1 million pounds in AIM shares ISA would go tax free to beneficiaries

My 4 million pound farm land would go tax free to beneficiaries

My 2 million pound house would incur £400,000 IHT

My pension of 1 million pounds would have gone tax free to beneficiaries

Before Labour 8 million pounds given for £500,000
IHT.

How can that be right?

Me hoping to leave my son a tiny proportion of that pays IHT!

OP posts:
Noras · 24/11/2024 08:26

This reply has been deleted

The OP has privacy concerns and so we've agreed to take this down.

He won’t be on CHC funding via the NHS it will be social care. He won’t fit with the domains.

I was amazed at the exemption to the social care clawback and they leave earnings untouched. I discovered this whilst prepping to get his expenditures offset to get rid off his social care bill. At present we are funding educational and physical activities which exceed his pip so he has no claw back from social care but we had to argue for it.

The whole thing is a torturous journey of rules and regulations which are not simple. You have to read through pages of exemptions and schedules from the social cafe and welfare care peope which adds to the burden of being a carer. Nothing is offered on a plate and you have to know all the rules and argue for them. I’m not sure that an average paid carer will cope so for instance educational activities that offer improvements reduces the social care clawback. Also health benefits if they have physical issues .

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OP posts:
Fairydust6 · 24/11/2024 08:19

This reply has been withdrawn

The OP has privacy concerns and so we've agreed to take this down.

Noras · 24/11/2024 08:15

‘Is it worth making the public more aware of blackrock’s and our government intentions or will they just think that we are conspiracy theorists?
The whole iht issue isn’t about us paying our share and funding the nhs. It’s about controlling the land. I don’t think the vast majority of people understand this’

This is the latest from the farmers forum. Seemingly they think that the new IHT rules are because Starme is in league with the likes of Blackrock and they want all food production run by a few large corporate farmers to control the people. He who controls the food controls the people. In actual fact over 50% of food is produced by 8 % of farmers on just over 30% of land. About 41 % of farms produce less than £25000 worth of output and are simply not productive. They are so small they won’t incur any IHT and serve to bring the average medium profits of farms right down hence distorting the figures

I suspect the ones getting upset ( other then the 8 # mega farmers owned by eg Dyson) are the 12% of medium farmers whose output is £120,000 to 250,000. It’s about 12% of farmers and many of those will still be below the 3 million IHT threshold.
There profits will be a lot larger and they can afford 20% IHT with interest free payback.

1 Many farmers have said they prefer lifestyle to chasing profit

2 Only the mega farmers and a few of the larger farms will be caught by the IHT changes - rightfully so

3 There are an awful lot of small farming units - 41% that have output so low it’s almost hobby farming and they being farm income averages right down and skew figures.

4 Some farmers are convinced it’s a mega corporation / Blackrock plot to put control of food into the hands of investment companies.
However these large units ie 8% of farms produce over 50% of output on just over 30%’of land so are more efficient and therefore have cheaper output costs which actually help the UK population as it keeps food prices down. It’s a bit like people having to shop from small shops as opposed to large Aldi or Lidls etc. Middle sized farmers openly admit to not chasing the output as they prefer to have the lifestyle - which does not help the population of the UK as if they suppress output it drives up prices.

Clearly at some point there will be a rationalisation of farm land as to have 41% of farms producing less than 25,000 each to output is not sustainable.

OP posts:
BIossomtoes · 24/11/2024 07:42

labamba007 · 24/11/2024 07:32

@BIossomtoes why so arsey? I've said I have very little understanding of it (my parents have nothing so it's not something I have considered). In which case, do you only pay IHT on money that has not been taxed is that how it works?

So my parents buy house for 500k and it's now come to me and worth one million, so the IHT amount is only applicable to the extra 500k?

No, it’s applied to the entire value of the estate. If it’s never going to affect you - along with 90+% of people - I don’t understand why you care about the “fairness” or otherwise. My estate will probably be liable for a small amount due to house price inflation - if care home fees don’t get it first - I don’t care because I’ll be dead.

Noras · 24/11/2024 07:39

From what I hear from speaking to people who live in supported living and go to a club for people, the rents for supported living have gone up a lot and are not properly covered by any increase in benefits. All I know is that even attending the club is a challenge as they cannot afford the Uber hence begging for lifts. Also I understand that life is bleak hence the self harming. I’m not sure I want that for my son. I am going to make an appointment to see one close by and will get the financials and then can run the figures here.

Also there is a difference between people who can live independently with say supported living and those that needs care still as the latter will incur a social care charge. So yes some will live better than others. It depends if you have a social charge claw back.

Earnings are exempt form the claw back. The ideal is someone who can work as any earning are exempt form the social charge. Just being able to do a certain number of hours that can is ring fenced changes the picture considerably. In an ideal world DS will be able to just about say stack shelves for 10 or 15 hours and keep his earnings but that in itself would be an ask. Ideally he would work on some sort of clerical role with routine and a hugely supportive employer. These exemptions tend r on favour the physically disabled who might be able to work a bit rather than the ND types who are less able to conform to work and regulating themselves. In those cirfs you can keep your UC , few hours earnings and PIp

Sp you cannot generalise that my aunt or cousin has a great life as disabled as not all are the same and they have varying amounts of income and housing costs.

Anyhow my son has just come upstairs and is dis in using his electronic scheduling aid which is a huge leap. It prompts him through the day. So that’s a great success.

OP posts:
Sugarflub · 24/11/2024 07:37

Inheritance tax is fair

There should be more support for disabled people

Working farms should be exempt from IHT if they can prove they provide x output and continue for y years after it's passed on otherwise it'll have to be paid

labamba007 · 24/11/2024 07:32

@BIossomtoes why so arsey? I've said I have very little understanding of it (my parents have nothing so it's not something I have considered). In which case, do you only pay IHT on money that has not been taxed is that how it works?

So my parents buy house for 500k and it's now come to me and worth one million, so the IHT amount is only applicable to the extra 500k?

BIossomtoes · 24/11/2024 07:20

labamba007 · 24/11/2024 02:27

I am no expert in IHT, but isn't the whole concept unfair? To pay tax on something that someone has already paid tax on? Would it not be best to argue for zero IHT rather than equal rights to farmers?

Had you bothered to read the thread you’d know double taxation on inheritance is a myth. Most IHT liability is because of property price inflation and that money has never been taxed. In taxation terms it’s virgin money. Added to which we pay tax on previously taxed money all the time - VAT, fuel duty, alcohol duty is all paid from income which has been subject to tax and NI.

Fairydust6 · 24/11/2024 06:08

This reply has been withdrawn

The OP has privacy concerns and so we've agreed to take this down.

Picpac876 · 24/11/2024 05:43

This reply has been deleted

The OP has privacy concerns and so we've agreed to take this down.

I am sorry though to hear that you're struggling with it. I hope things get better for you. There are some charities which provide grants for holidays and the like, but then you have all the practicalities of actually getting there etc. I hope there's at least some good support for you in your local area.

Picpac876 · 24/11/2024 05:30

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The OP has privacy concerns and so we've agreed to take this down.

My siblings isn't, his is council funded. But yeah, the CHC funding route for the other relative was brutal. It was only through social care intervention when she was in an elderly care home not even having the support provided to be able to do anything except watch TV. I'd hate to have been in that position in my 20s and I'd hate for anybody else to have to go through that. No winners for anybody there.

penelopelady · 24/11/2024 05:29

Provety is hard on everyone and many people with disabilities have to live in poverty also through no fault of their own. I do get it I have two sons in the same boat, you need proper financial advice, most my friends in this situation put the money in a trust which then doesn't affect the persons ability to claim universal credit.

Obviously there are changes at the minute with tax but you need to get advice and like me realise that we are fortunate to have this issue.

Fairydust6 · 24/11/2024 05:26

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Picpac876 · 24/11/2024 05:19

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Sure, but that's only got to cover his food, bills and then anything extra. Per week, and that's just for him. Are you also including the mobility allowance that isn't factored into the care contribution? Covid meant that he saved quite a lot as wasn't able to spend on anything other than food shop and bills. It was after that that he did manage to afford a holiday in Europe, as he saved quite a lot over that year or two. They didn't go out for a lot of Covid except on walks. He rarely buys clothes and doesn't go anywhere fancy for those or for eating out. He goes swimming weekly and to a few different activities, but again, they tend to be minimal cost. It probably also helps that he shares his accommodation with 2 other young adults.

My other relative is in a different set up and her care funded through CHC. So I don't know the details there. I think she is fairly careful with costs, but again not unable to afford meals out or a short break once a year. Nothing fancy like going abroad or Michelin Star cuisine, but enough to live well and even have her own dog.

Yes, it is a limit, that unless you get very lucky you aren't going to be able to have things like your own property or even a substantial amount of assets or a brand new car that you own. But it's not guaranteed to be a life of total poverty with holes in your shoes where you can never afford to eat out. I know for some it can be, higher living costs in some areas, potential for additional costs due to health issues and mental health knock ons etc.

Coffeeloverme · 24/11/2024 05:18

Ph3 · 23/11/2024 20:50

So you think it’s fair people being taxed effectively twice?

If there’s no inheritance tax working people will be taxed more. As far as the recipients of wills go it’s unearned wealth. I’d rather this is taxed than those struggling on average/below average incomes be taxed which would be the alternative. Services have to be paid for and just better off people paying income tax is no where near sufficient, Much of the money paid through inheritance tax (not talking about farmers) is because of the advantages the baby boom generation had in house buying ie the relative ease that was achieved and the house price increases. Significant amounts are not subject to iht (should be less imo) and that increases the unevenness and unfairness of our society. To me inheritance tax is no brainer.

CrazyAndSagittarius · 24/11/2024 04:48

You need you speak to a financial adviser and start planning for your disabled child's future now.

However your situation has nothing to do with the issue for farmers which is nothing ti do with "wealthy people not paying taxes" which is what you imply, and all to do with the nation's food security. IHT will see farms being broken up and sold off in order to pay it, rather than the farm being passed down to younger generations to continue farming. It's a terrible policy for that reason alone. We need to support farming as being able to produce our own food is vital for the nation. Farmers have been struggling for years with supermarkets driving down their prices and they rely on subsidies. They are generally income poor and asset rich. If you put more pressure on them, they will sell up and leave farming. We need to support our farmers, not make things harder for them.

Unfortunately there are wealthy people using the farm exemption as a way of tax avoidance which is why this has been done. But labour need to find a way to do this without penalising "real" farmers. Our food security is too important.

Fairydust6 · 24/11/2024 04:28

This reply has been withdrawn

The OP has privacy concerns and so we've agreed to take this down.

halloumidippers · 24/11/2024 03:29

How many of you will set up some sort of trust or ensure at the house is held as tenants in common to avoid care home fees. Probably the same people who begrudge a disabled person a holiday but want the state to pay for their care when older. millions signed the various campaigns in papers like the Daily Mail for free social care for the elderly!

But... @Noras this is not what your thread is asking. You Lee asking for the government to make changes to the law for an exemption for you. Many people have suggested you take advantage of those same loopholes to plan efficiently.

Picpac876 · 24/11/2024 03:05

I must admit reading this thread has me slightly confused. I have two relatives with severe disabilities and who have had no family financial contributions and yet are able to afford a decent lifestyle and wouldn't be seen to be living in poverty. Annual holiday, regular haircuts, meals out once a week and coffees etc. One of these being a sibling in a supported living shared accommodation with constant staff presence, the other living in a property themselves with 24/7 1:1. Because they're not able to work they have means tested benefits in addition to PIP. The local council pays for the care and accommodation with a small contribution and then from their benefits they pay the bills and for all other costs.

In fact my sibling had his means tested benefits cut off temporarily as he'd saved too much. Last year he went on an overseas holiday for a week with a 1:1 carer and he pays for various activities, meals out and coffee shop visits, along with a new laptop every few years and tablet. Taxis where necessary, if no driver on duty. I don't begrudge him this at all, as it does come with many limitations, but I definitely wouldn't say he lives in abject poverty.

In many respects he's more financially secure than other mildy disabled family members who have very limited qualifications and struggle to get a job above minimum wage and haven't been on holiday since before covid. They have enough to get by, but require family support financially.

I think my sibling with the more severe disabilities has a better life in supported living. Support workers whose jobs are literally there to support him, whether that be through cooking assistance, laundry guidance, supporting him with social activities and food shopping. He's become more independent and had so many more opportunities. Back when he lived at home he wasn't able to go on holiday or out as much, as there just wasn't the funding or support.

labamba007 · 24/11/2024 02:27

I am no expert in IHT, but isn't the whole concept unfair? To pay tax on something that someone has already paid tax on? Would it not be best to argue for zero IHT rather than equal rights to farmers?

Noras · 24/11/2024 01:46

Ph3 · 24/11/2024 01:30

OP please don’t listen to those that think that disabled people don’t deserve a life. Of course they do. They deserve as much as everyone else. And don’t let people make you feel bad for claiming any sort of benefits. You have worked and contributed and that’s what our taxes are for. To help those who needed it to live a decent life. I completely understand your frustration. Carers of any kind are underpaid and under appreciated.

Thanks. Personally I have claimed only carers allowance and that was in the last few years. Mostly I did not claim it for years due to guilt although someone said that if DH and I divorced I would be in a terrible position. I just wanted all oaths I to go away and it to be a horrible nightmare,

People seem to be attacking me for my DS figure which is odd .Seemingly in their view me and DS who is an adult are linked somehow - I wonder if they take any financial responsibility for their own adult kids especially if any of their adult kids dare claim UC or child benefit which seemingly by their definition is some sort of scrounging and means that their adult kids most certainly should not have holidays if they have to have income topped up by UC. What about their adult kids who salary sacrifice into pensions to claim free nursery care or avoid the £100,000 - 60 % tax cliff edge etc? What about the salary sacrifice to claim child benefit. How many of your adult kids do that?

I am not my adult son.

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