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To think that parents cannot leave money to severely disabled offspring free of IHT

335 replies

Noras · 22/11/2024 04:17

Frankly I have been quite upset about farmers kicking up a fuss about IHT when they can transfer 3 million pounds of wealth IHT free and after that it only costs 20% which can be paid over a decade interest free.

As a parent of a disabled adult child I can only transfer one million pounds like anyone else and any unpaid IHT has to be paid over 10 years with 7% interest due.

We have other kids and can’t exclude them from our wills so that eats into the IHT allowance.

My son will struggle to work in any form of paid job.

I was discussing his placement in supported living with a social worker yesterday as a pretty likely destination

His life will inevitably be one of benefits eg universal credit and PIP

We have left % more to him due to his profound needs.

Our combined estate will face IHT charges especially with the fiscal drag.

So through no fault of my son he will live in relative poverty except for what is left after IHT into a vulnerable persons trust.

My son is used to nicer things eg holidays/ clothes etc and has some awareness of his current nicer life style even if he is not that driven by material things.

We would have to deprive ourselves of a decent retirement to ensure he is decently provided for,

I am heart broken to have given birth to someone who will live in relative poverty assuming he has a long life and the monies inherited have to cover say 45/50 years.

I am not the only parent waking up at 3am in fear of their kid’s future it’s a well known thing about parents of kids with disability.

AIBU to think that the Government should allow an IHT allowance for dependants who are classed as high needs eg PIP high or mid levels eg not really able to live independently etc? I can’t believe that they make no allowance in IHT terms for the disabled. As it is his care and needs have been an additional expense to us throughout his life eg 1:1 swimming lessons ,Ed Psych reports, SALT, private OT , personal trainers etc. This always exceeds disability benefits.

OP posts:
SunQueen24 · 24/11/2024 11:28

Ph3 · 24/11/2024 10:53

Kindly show me where I said that we should abolish inheritance tax and leave it at that. I don’t think I did so. I even pointed to other countries that have and managed to make it work. Can’t comment on unicorn poo on what it can or can’t do as I’m unfamiliar.

You said abolishing one tax doesn’t lead to more tax in another area - but the fact remains that will equal a deficit which will need to be recovered elsewhere.

Anothercoffeeafter3 · 24/11/2024 11:26

SunQueen24 · 24/11/2024 10:38

The alternative to inheritance tax is not automatically taxing people more - weirdly enough that is always how it works in the Uk

I stopped reading there 🙄

Just because you don't agree doesn't mean it's not right. I would like to see a smaller state with copay e.g you have a child in school add 2% to your tax bracket per child, income protection being the normal not benefits, on benefits get out and clean the streets (we litter pick our village the council doesn't).

Ph3 · 24/11/2024 10:58

Noras · 24/11/2024 10:48

Income tax is at the highest it has ever been since the 1970s when people were leaving the country on their droves.

Capital gains tax is higher than since the 1970s as there is no allowance made for inflation or indexation relief.

Inheritance tax was bringing in virtually nothing and not is what about several billion due to fiscal drag on £350,000 being unaltered. People are selling off their parents main home to pay it ( or using really expensive all life insurance that you are forced to pay until death to lose all the premiums so end up wishing to die earlier).

For higher tax payers they are paying more than on places like France and getting poorer services eg health care and pensions ( which are linked to earnings in France and also are on household income not individual).

We are going under unless we get productivity up.

Frankly they need to get people back working eg like me and I’m happy to do that but ironically it will cost the state more for DS social care. There is no net gain.

So what can be done? So when the farmers protest who do they want to take away from. And yes even the cost of sheltered accommodation has increased above the rise in benefits which are linked to CPI not RPI index whereas pensions are shielded due to triple lock. So even the disabled are worse off. So who has to pay?

We have left the uk for this reason. Had enough. And we have quite a few friends who are either doing the same or considering it. A couple friends of ours are going to America in February next year (they lived there before came back to the uk as they missed their family) but they are worse off. We have some friends in Dubai since April, Canada in January and Australia in May. As I said I don’t have all the answers but we do agree that something has to change. That there are better ways. I also think that the keep calm and carry on mentality whilst is really something to admire in emergency situations isn’t always the best when change is required

Ph3 · 24/11/2024 10:53

SunQueen24 · 24/11/2024 10:45

It doesn’t take a mathematician to realise that when you remove one revenue source it will leave a deficit. That deficit has to come from somewhere. It won’t be unicorn poo balancing the books.

Edited

Kindly show me where I said that we should abolish inheritance tax and leave it at that. I don’t think I did so. I even pointed to other countries that have and managed to make it work. Can’t comment on unicorn poo on what it can or can’t do as I’m unfamiliar.

Noras · 24/11/2024 10:48

Income tax is at the highest it has ever been since the 1970s when people were leaving the country on their droves.

Capital gains tax is higher than since the 1970s as there is no allowance made for inflation or indexation relief.

Inheritance tax was bringing in virtually nothing and not is what about several billion due to fiscal drag on £350,000 being unaltered. People are selling off their parents main home to pay it ( or using really expensive all life insurance that you are forced to pay until death to lose all the premiums so end up wishing to die earlier).

For higher tax payers they are paying more than on places like France and getting poorer services eg health care and pensions ( which are linked to earnings in France and also are on household income not individual).

We are going under unless we get productivity up.

Frankly they need to get people back working eg like me and I’m happy to do that but ironically it will cost the state more for DS social care. There is no net gain.

So what can be done? So when the farmers protest who do they want to take away from. And yes even the cost of sheltered accommodation has increased above the rise in benefits which are linked to CPI not RPI index whereas pensions are shielded due to triple lock. So even the disabled are worse off. So who has to pay?

OP posts:
SunQueen24 · 24/11/2024 10:45

Ph3 · 24/11/2024 10:42

Not surprised - 🤣 I’m going to take a wild guess and say you’ve never lived outside the Uk so obviously can’t possibly imagine how. Other countries do it and have a lower rate of tax. Look it up

It doesn’t take a mathematician to realise that when you remove one revenue source it will leave a deficit. That deficit has to come from somewhere. It won’t be unicorn poo balancing the books.

Ph3 · 24/11/2024 10:42

SunQueen24 · 24/11/2024 10:38

The alternative to inheritance tax is not automatically taxing people more - weirdly enough that is always how it works in the Uk

I stopped reading there 🙄

Not surprised - 🤣 I’m going to take a wild guess and say you’ve never lived outside the Uk so obviously can’t possibly imagine how. Other countries do it and have a lower rate of tax. Look it up

SunQueen24 · 24/11/2024 10:38

The alternative to inheritance tax is not automatically taxing people more - weirdly enough that is always how it works in the Uk

I stopped reading there 🙄

Noras · 24/11/2024 10:36

Ph3 · 24/11/2024 10:34

The alternative to inheritance tax is not automatically taxing people more - weirdly enough that is always how it works in the Uk practically and how people think but by no means the only alternative. To say it’s one or another is not accurate at all. As mentioned before there are other countries such as Portugal and Canada for example where the rate of tax for working people is not higher than the Uk - but it’s actually lower. So abolishing one doesn’t mean the other has to increase. You might think it’s “unearned wealth” but that only applies to property whilst the inheritance tax applies to everything cash included. So according to your argument the tax should only work on the “extra” that the house is worth now versus how much they paid for it. And not on cash left - but it doesn’t. So that part of inheritance is in fact taxed twice. You also talk about the advantage that the “baby boomers” had regarding buying house - which I agree - but the tax doesn’t affect them it affects the next generation that already have is much tougher: so the windfall of the property would either benefit the next generation and address that imbalance. So not sure how the inheritance tax addresses that unfairness. I agree that services need to be paid for but not this way they need to do an overhaul of the benefit system, they need to think on passing some of the cost to the people that use the services. There are another areas that can be tweaked. Whilst I think the NHS is amazing the reality is it can not go on as is we have an ageing population and 20 million more people than there was had when it was created. Continuing to increase taxes for people isn’t going to cut it and it’s not a long term solution.

So what would be in your budget?

OP posts:
Ph3 · 24/11/2024 10:34

Coffeeloverme · 24/11/2024 05:18

If there’s no inheritance tax working people will be taxed more. As far as the recipients of wills go it’s unearned wealth. I’d rather this is taxed than those struggling on average/below average incomes be taxed which would be the alternative. Services have to be paid for and just better off people paying income tax is no where near sufficient, Much of the money paid through inheritance tax (not talking about farmers) is because of the advantages the baby boom generation had in house buying ie the relative ease that was achieved and the house price increases. Significant amounts are not subject to iht (should be less imo) and that increases the unevenness and unfairness of our society. To me inheritance tax is no brainer.

The alternative to inheritance tax is not automatically taxing people more - weirdly enough that is always how it works in the Uk practically and how people think but by no means the only alternative. To say it’s one or another is not accurate at all. As mentioned before there are other countries such as Portugal and Canada for example where the rate of tax for working people is not higher than the Uk - but it’s actually lower. So abolishing one doesn’t mean the other has to increase. You might think it’s “unearned wealth” but that only applies to property whilst the inheritance tax applies to everything cash included. So according to your argument the tax should only work on the “extra” that the house is worth now versus how much they paid for it. And not on cash left - but it doesn’t. So that part of inheritance is in fact taxed twice. You also talk about the advantage that the “baby boomers” had regarding buying house - which I agree - but the tax doesn’t affect them it affects the next generation that already have is much tougher: so the windfall of the property would either benefit the next generation and address that imbalance. So not sure how the inheritance tax addresses that unfairness. I agree that services need to be paid for but not this way they need to do an overhaul of the benefit system, they need to think on passing some of the cost to the people that use the services. There are another areas that can be tweaked. Whilst I think the NHS is amazing the reality is it can not go on as is we have an ageing population and 20 million more people than there was had when it was created. Continuing to increase taxes for people isn’t going to cut it and it’s not a long term solution.

Fairydust6 · 24/11/2024 09:47

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Fairydust6 · 24/11/2024 09:46

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Picpac876 · 24/11/2024 09:40

@Fairydust6 Might your local Citizens Advice Bureau be able to signpost? There might be local or national organisations that have experience with situations like yours? Sometimes you don't know about what's out there until you hear somehow through a long grapevine. It varies so much from county to county. Sorry, just trying to find something to help.

Fairydust6 · 24/11/2024 09:40

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Fairydust6 · 24/11/2024 09:31

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Anewuser · 24/11/2024 09:25

I’ve always said it’s the middle that get screwed.

If you’re able work, you keep your income. In our position, our son is so severely disabled he gets CHC funding, so nothing is taken from him. The middle are unfortunately shafted.

I’m sorry you’re in that position.

Picpac876 · 24/11/2024 09:23

@Fairydust6 I'm really sorry, urgh, that all sounded so negative. And yet I'm still not finding anything positive to offer. So many gaps in the system.

Picpac876 · 24/11/2024 09:20

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Yes, I fully get that, you seem to have fallen into that black hole where you're screwed either way. You own your house so have to maintain it and pay for those costs. Yet if you sold it you'd be burning all the money away until you fall under the threshold for having care costs taken care of etc. And let's not even get into where they'd expect you to live. Private rentals aren't great for those on benefits. Council is a nightmare with the waiting lists. Would you qualify for supported or sheltered? But even then you've got all this money that you then have to lose. Urgh. Again, I'm sorry you're in this position.

Fairydust6 · 24/11/2024 09:14

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Fairydust6 · 24/11/2024 09:09

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Picpac876 · 24/11/2024 09:09

Noras · 24/11/2024 08:58

I think it will boil down to how independent you are on supported living

If you need a PA that’s not good as you will have social care claw back and PA expenses.

If you can live in supported with no PA you will have more money.

The amount of disposable income for 2 people living just off UC and PIP can be vastly different so knowing Jo bloggs who does ok doesn’t really help.As things stand DS will needs both supported living and PA support.

The council should be the ones providing a care package based on a needs assessment. The amount of support your son gets would then be based on his needs and should also involve some 1:1, even if this isn't always needed, so that they get more personalised time. I don't know if it is common for those in supported living to have a PA, as there is no need. The support they need should be provided by the care package.

I'd also be interested to hear what setup those other members of this group have where they are being faced with paying increased rent. That would suggest they have more than £6,000 in savings or similar for it not to be fully covered.

Toomanywars · 24/11/2024 09:08

Noras · 24/11/2024 01:06

I have sacrificed my earning potential, my happiness and my future pension to care for my son.

No more. I told social care that I’m working so this is what that means. It means that an agency will provide social care at £25 per hour instead of me at £81 per week carers allowance. I can now save for a pension and also work to get back my self respect that has been lost in the years of caring.

People have hit the nail on the head. Life as a disabled person is a lot more expensive. Just engaging the PA you have expenses as everything is double. Public transport is often inaccessible. As an example of an expense my DS just seems to break things when he tries to do something eg clean.

I realise that people here think that disabled people should live in a box, never have holidays and pretty much have no quality of life as some sort of punishment for daring to be disabled. It’s frankly disturbing and also frankly there is karma so be careful what you wish for.

Disabled people are not those who choose not to work. Many would absolutely love to work but we have such an awful society that does not want to engage with them or they might get extremely low paid work with support. I’m not talking about a whizz with Alzheimer’s who’s someone’s cousin or nephew, I’m talking about my son who will walk down a street gesturing to himself and talking to himself and occasionally might bang his head on a wall. I don’t want to see him dressed in shabby clothes frankly he has enough issues without looking less acceptable in dress. I would like him to look smart with short hair etc

Where should the money come from. So called working people are taxed to the hilt. I recognise that I have to contribute and at my advanced age made numerous application and have secured work. If wages and earning cannot be taxed enough then next it will be capital. So how shall that fall? People who have straightforward inheritances are losing their family homes in the South as the value exceeds the IHT thresholds. They are proportionately poorer as 30 years ago that exact same house would not have been subject to IHT it could have remained the family home. Everyone is being taxed more except the uber rich.

As for farmers,8% of all farmers are responsible for over 50% of all output from farms and own 38% of all farm land in the UK. These are huge mega estates that pay zero tax. The middle earning farmers are described by their own ‘union’ the NFU as life style farmers ie not chasing the profits. They often have other interests eg employment of the farm or their activities eg farm shops, camp sites, bed and breakfast etc. These are not my words.

There are a significant number of farmers - over one third who barely produce any output and I’m nor even sure why they bother. There little bits of land will most likely be exempt from IHt

I’m sure that the wealthy farmers have whipped up a storm with the NFU who under Tory rule were insider lobbyists. They are the ones encouraging the protests and the spread of misinformation, half the farmers on their one portal had no ideas that the IHT could be paid over 10 years interest free for example. Inflation will erode that debt to very little unless you are one of the above huge mega farmers.

Also we have the uber rich corporations. How much tax does Facebook pay and yet how many today have seen adverts on Facebook Instagram and other social media? All that advertising revenue now completely lost to the UK because successive governments lack the desire to tax where the advert is shown. There’s big money in government and watch ex minister secure lucrative positions on the board.

So yes there are decisions to be made.

If asked on a bad day, my son would ask you to allow him to die but that option is not even allowed by the State who just wants to keep the disabled in some form of controlled poverty. Also the people here who think thst my son should never have a holiday or any fun because he is a burden to the state.

In an ideal World they would have their one villages with their own little shops, entertainment and community where they could live safely and those that could work a bit could run the shops, the pub with support. There is so much that should be done and maybe if the Uber rich were taxed it could happen.

When my son was a toddler and I heard the news that he was significantly disabled for a day I wanted to walk with him in front of a bus. I was shivering and scared and a lovely lady from his nursery took me in and gave me a cup of tea and made an emergency call to the GP who tried to reassure me that things would not necessarily be that bad.

But they are that bad because the people here don’t want the disabled to have decent lives. They don’t want the disabled to have a holiday, a meal out or whatever, they want them incarcerated in some rubbish hole not costing much until they die. Well great but the same might come back to you when you get dementia and your funds run out - hopefully you will go to some third rate hell hole of a care home. The reality is that the wealthier of the OAP’s get to stay in the nicer care homes because they paid for a while so the state allows them to remain. How many of you will give away money to your kids to avoid care home fees. How many of you will set up some sort of trust or ensure at the house is held as tenants in common to avoid care home fees. Probably the same people who begrudge a disabled person a holiday but want the state to pay for their care when older. millions signed the various campaigns in papers like the Daily Mail for free social care for the elderly!

They are the ones who campaigned to ask the state not to take their houses when they finally need care. However at least that care is just for the last few years and not a lifetime of misery and dependancy with abject poverty, At least they have had some sort of decent life before dementia or Parkinson’s struck,

When I thought about that bus as it approached me all I could think of was “ We are the bad one”. I felt rubbish for having a rubbish son who would drag down the family.

The biggest irony is that the lovely lady who rescued me, her husband died under a bus a few years later and she herself died of cancer. So trust me all the thoughts I had that day have been justified because people are frankly despicable and nasty until it happens to them, luckily I met an angel that day. Be warned the likelihood is you will need care one day and it will cost £80,000 per annum and many of you ( the same ones who begrudged a disabled person a holiday) would seek advice to for instance shield assets from social services eg with some form of trust or by severing a joint tenancy or by making life time gifts to adult kids. That’s why I think there is so much hypocrisy.

I agree.

SleeplessInWherever · 24/11/2024 09:01

To be honest, I don’t think I’ll ever understand your argument @Noras.

Your attitude to various things is so far from my experience and understanding of being a SEN parent.

  • I would never, ever, refer to him as a burden. Certainly not on a public forum. The “burden of care” is your responsibility, you’re his parent.
  • Same for all the sacrifices we make as SEN parents. Tough shit, it’s part of bringing them up.
  • Linking his challenges to whether he looks tidy is disgraceful. The disabled people you see who look less put together deserve support too, and the way you describe them is awful. Have you considered they might not care what you think, or that you should be less judgemental?
  • Nobody is suggesting disabled people don’t deserve holidays - they’re saying it’s not up to the public to pay for it. While your aim is to ensure your son can still claim benefits and also inherit from your estate - the public are unnecessarily funding your child’s life style. I’ve got a disabled child too, he also deserves a holiday, but not out of public funds when he has his own.

There is no link between farmers and disabled kids. As others have said, this isn’t a race to the bottom.

We could all play the pity me card, and complain someone else has more. Plan as best you can, give him the best you can without expecting the tax payer to subsidise someone who has £300k in the bank, and stop thinking someone is in poverty because they don’t get their hair cut as often as you’d like. That isn’t poverty.

Noras · 24/11/2024 08:58

I think it will boil down to how independent you are on supported living

If you need a PA that’s not good as you will have social care claw back and PA expenses.

If you can live in supported with no PA you will have more money.

The amount of disposable income for 2 people living just off UC and PIP can be vastly different so knowing Jo bloggs who does ok doesn’t really help.As things stand DS will needs both supported living and PA support.

OP posts:
Noras · 24/11/2024 08:53

ShinyBinLid · 24/11/2024 08:46

I agree. When I worked at a supported housing service the residents had more disposible income than I did working there on minimum wage. I don't begrudge this at all and think good state support should be available to all.

Which means taxing those who can afford it, which includes large inherited estates. Trying to avoid this is essentially taking money from the communal pot and saying you think you/your children deserve better at the expense of others.

Things have changed as the supported living costs have increased a lot I have been told.

OP posts: