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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Problematic employee

63 replies

somenonsense · 21/11/2024 23:25

I am a manager of 10 people.

One employee takes up most of my time. She is emotionally immature and very entitled, despite being in her late 30s.

She was in charge of choosing her own workload, but ended up working extra hours and complained until HR agreed to extend her contract to full time pay over 4 long days. She is meant to work 8-6:30 every day.

She is meant to work 60% in the office, she comes in maybe once a month- always some excuse why she can't come in. "Headache" "repairman coming" "period pain" "child sick". She is 90% WFH.

She does however love to travel for conferences and events. She is the first to put her hand up for that and argues fiercely when it comes to say it's someone else's turn.

I could go on.

Anyway, my issue. I've managed her for three years. Every Ramadan she WFH, of course. But she gets fuck all done. She logs off by mid afternoon to start cooking a feast for her extended family. She is unproductive when she is online. She spends meetings complaining about how hungry she is, and throws a sulk if the team goes to lunch. She is always invited, but sits there with a face like a slapped arse and complains about how hungry she is.

She is not devout in any other way that I can see, beyond observing Ramadan. She drinks a lot etc.

This year I want to get ahead of it, and ask her to adjust her hours or take leave over Ramadan. I think she is taking the absolute piss getting paid full time pay while producing a few hours worth of work.

AIBU? Or racist? Do I need to accommodate this?

I feel like if she was less of a pain in the arse in general I would let it slide more, but I've had it and she needs some boundaries.

OP posts:
New posts on this thread. Refresh page
somenonsense · 23/11/2024 10:40

Phonicshaskilledmeoff · 22/11/2024 21:29

‘Would you prefer to work your hours over 5 days during Ramadan so you’re able to finish earlier in the evening at 5?’

This is a good idea

OP posts:
somenonsense · 23/11/2024 10:40

ChocolateTelephone · 22/11/2024 22:38

I think she should be entitled to leave for Ramadan. Who cares if she’s devout? Plenty of non devout people celebrate Christmas and expect time off for it.

The other stuff all sounds like a nightmare and that’s what you need to address with her. Speak to HR for advice on how to approach her improving her performance.

I'm happy for her to take religious or cultural leave. We have leave for this purpose.

The problem is she doesn't take it for Ramadan. She "works" from home but logs on late, does little and then logs off early to cook.

She saves the religious leave for other times or tacks it onto her holiday leave.

OP posts:
TizerorFizz · 23/11/2024 00:22

Two days at Christmas are holidays that most get or take off in lieu at another time. Ramadan is not a national holiday here, hence time off is by negotiation. This employee doesn’t have a policy tailored to her. The company should have a Ramadan policy and the OP implements it.

marmaladeandpeanutbutter · 22/11/2024 23:13

You clearly need training in management and she is taking the p, and being allowed so far.

Also I do think your remark was racist, as I'm sure that given what you say (and after 3 years) you have plenty of other examples.

Redcliffe1 · 22/11/2024 23:08

I had one of these. Consistency is key. Let her throw her toys out of the pram. Tell her what you need to see, it up in writing and keep on it
Best outcome is she leaves. 2nd best outcome is improved performance.

LouiseD1977 · 22/11/2024 22:46

somenonsense · 22/11/2024 20:58

What do I do when she has a tantrum and HR are useless?

Your job.

You manage her.

This is what you are paid for.

You have created a monster and now that her behaviour is impacting you, you expect everyone else to fix the problem you’ve created.

ChocolateTelephone · 22/11/2024 22:38

I think she should be entitled to leave for Ramadan. Who cares if she’s devout? Plenty of non devout people celebrate Christmas and expect time off for it.

The other stuff all sounds like a nightmare and that’s what you need to address with her. Speak to HR for advice on how to approach her improving her performance.

ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews · 22/11/2024 22:35

Put a meeting in your LM's diary, and invite an HR member of staff.

You know exactly what to say, cos you've articulated it perfectly!

ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews · 22/11/2024 22:30

MillyMichaelson · 22/11/2024 11:32

Sounds like the entire company is a mess, and she's certainly found the right place if what she wants is a job where she can take the piss.

It sounds like she's got a job for life!

Phonicshaskilledmeoff · 22/11/2024 21:29

‘Would you prefer to work your hours over 5 days during Ramadan so you’re able to finish earlier in the evening at 5?’

TizerorFizz · 22/11/2024 21:14

@somenonsense A tantrum at work is not acceptable. You don’t have to accept this behaviour. When you say HR are useless, have you actually spoken to them? You really do need to stand up to her because you have other people in the team who are working to cover for her absence and lack of productivity. You must consider them.

So tell her to compose herself and you won’t be shouted at. Say you will talk to her when she’s calm. Say that her contract must be honoured. If she has a tantrum tell HR and insist there’s a disciplinary hearing. You do need to face this down. Usually insubordination when asked to work in line with your contract is a disciplinary matter. Read your discipline policy.

ThatsNotMyTeen · 22/11/2024 21:10

somenonsense · 22/11/2024 20:58

What do I do when she has a tantrum and HR are useless?

Ignore it and crack on

like you’d do with a toddler

BlueMum16 · 22/11/2024 21:06

somenonsense · 22/11/2024 20:58

What do I do when she has a tantrum and HR are useless?

Give an example of the tantrum you expect?

If she's working 4 days. Ask her which days she can be in the office each week. If she cannot make the day agree explain she'll have to come in another day or if she's sick be off sick.

Stand your ground but be consistent and fair and treat her the same as everyone else.

somenonsense · 22/11/2024 20:58

What do I do when she has a tantrum and HR are useless?

OP posts:
Viviennemary · 22/11/2024 16:58

I think you should send an e-mail to all the staff you manage reminding them of the terms and conditions of their employment. Then when she reverts back to her lazy ways then go through disciplinary procedures. But you will need to treat everybody the same

ForPearlViper · 22/11/2024 16:49

I totally agree with other posters that Ramadan is a red herring here, it is just a list of things that she is using to get her way.

However, just for the record, I think she can only pull the Ramadan issue because she is, I'm assuming in a minority to observe it in your organisation? I worked for an organisation that had a very strong 'Islamic Ethos'. I'd say two thirds of the staff were Muslim including the MD and senior management team. It was a great place to work but she wouldn't have lasted five minutes in that environment. Her colleagues would have put her straight very quickly.

Whilst reasonable adjustments were made, eg, start/end times flexible if possible, the only changes made in the organisation during Ramadan, were that we didn't organise any 'extra' activities that might take place out of hours or required any exertion. And we closed for Eid holidays in addition to Christmas.

TizerorFizz · 22/11/2024 15:05

Don’t suggest she gets another job. That’s moving towards constructive dismissal. However make it clear she needs to comply with the terms and conditions of the job and excuse after excuse won’t be accepted. Agree her wfh and work in office timetable,

ElaborateCushion · 22/11/2024 13:41

YabbaDabbaDooooo · 22/11/2024 09:44

If any other employee said 'I've terrible period pain, is it ok if I work from home today?' I'd say 'no problem' that's reasonable.

It's not reasonable. If they're due in the office that day and can't come in, that's what their sick leave is for.

To be honest, you should be asking all these questions to your manager, not a parenting website.

Or recognise that you've let things slide for so long into this mess, there's no point in changing it until you've had your training and become a competent manager.

When is your training booked for?

I would (and have) let the period pain thing go. I have a team member with PCOS and I know how much she can struggle. She appreciates the flexibility and will always, without me asking, make up the time in the office another day instead.

Too many other staff, however, think that if their "sick but workable" time falls on an office day, oh well, that's handy, I'll just miss that day in the office.

As all the other posters are saying, Ramadan is a red herring in this whole situation.

You need to start managing the employee better, while maintaining consistency across all your team. i.e. if someone else doesn't come in to the office on a day that the repair man is coming, you need to give them the same response as you would the problematic employee.

Send group wide emails to the whole team setting out your expectations (or reminding them of their contracted terms). Blame higher up management if you need to (clear it with them first), saying "BigBoss has asked me to remind all of you that you need to ensure you are in the office X days per week. We of course are flexible where we can be, but if you need to arrange something on a day that you are otherwise due to be in the office, you are expected to make up the office time later."

Also, remind people that they have a statutory right to put in a flexible working request. She can then, if she wants, formally apply to WFH 90% of the time and you can give it due consideration (using HR for support).

I think you have probably fallen into the same trap I did - you don't want to upset anyone and just want to be liked by your team. Unfortunately some people, as you've learned, will abuse that.

I stood firm with one employee, after being nice for too long, and set out my expectations in terms of their attendance and performance. The whole team have now learned that I do have a limit after all and while I am fair and reasonable with them, I won't tolerate having the piss taken as it's not fair on me or the rest of the team that are picking up the slack.

In your case, consider what performance statistics you are able to use. Start gradually implementing results of these in with everyone's feedback.

Slowly, slowly, make it clear that things are going to change and she'll either have the choice to get on board, or find another job. You being consistent with all staff will remove the threat of a constructive dismissal claim if you make life too hard for her alone.

DoYouReally · 22/11/2024 13:21

Ramadan isn't the issue here.

She has piss poor performance all the time.
The tail is wagging the dog here.

You need a conversation about performance, attendance and conduct. If you have ant concerns about it ask HR to frame it for you and document.

Why isn't she on a PIP?

GinandGingerBeer · 22/11/2024 13:17

We had someone just like it- she was public sector and even we managed to get her sacked! Sounds like she's come your way OP
You must have a policy re flexible working to back you up? There's a really good response up thread from @ChateauMargaux re how to tackle her. It's so unfair on your existing team if she's getting paid full time for fuck all.

rookiemere · 22/11/2024 13:13

somenonsense · 22/11/2024 11:23

She recently had a back injury (or so she said) and told me she was taking four weeks leave.

She contacted HR and told them she was going to take only half the time as leave- because she would be available for phone calls.

She did not clear it with me, but gave HR the impression it was all settled and approved.

Almost no one called her. There was no need. On one of the days she was 'working a half day' literally everyone was out of the office.

I realised halfway through the third week and HR were like "oh it's nearly the end of the period anyway. Not worth raising it with her"

I emailed her asking for set hours she would be working, and she responded that she wanted to be "available the whole day, so she could help those who needed her" and that sitting at a computer needlessly would harm her back.

HR were useless.

I'm afraid it's just HR sounding useless here.

Why didn't you do something about this as soon as you knew ? Or forced HR to do something during that third week. You're her manager, do your job.

TizerorFizz · 22/11/2024 12:51

@Guest100 All of that should be discussed with HR. Issuing a written warning has a protocol attached. It must be evidence based so how the evidence is collected matters. The OP must follow the employees handbook or policies the firm has in place. Failing that, ACAS advice.

TizerorFizz · 22/11/2024 12:40

@somenonsense I wonder what her employment record is before she came to you?

I think you must speak to HR and come up with a plan and not keep accepting excuses and poor productivity. This will involve challenging her and record keeping. You didn’t answer me regarding annual appraisal and performance management. Are you a company actually making money or a charity? Who manages you? Why haven’t you had appropriate training? I’m afraid you will have to toughen up but don’t mention religion. That’s a company wide policy area. You do though need to apply it!

Guest100 · 22/11/2024 11:50

somenonsense · 22/11/2024 09:36

How do you hold someone accountable when they always have an excuse?

Put them on a personal improvement plan. Hold them accountable, give written warnings if that’s still a thing.

YabbaDabbaDooooo · 22/11/2024 11:47

So your manager isn't doing his job.

You're not doing your job.

HR isn't doing its job.

No wonder she's taking the piss. The whole company needs a massive overhaul because you're all dragging each other down.