Page 6 | To think something has gone wrong in schools? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz0m2x30p4eo

RebelBabybel · 2024-11-21T17:34:47+00:00

From the BBC : school exclusions have doubled in the last 10 years. I’ve worked in schools for 30 years : KS1/Early Years. When I first started I was expected to do : hand written, detailed plans. Assessments. Handwritten reports. I had no TA. I had a blackboard. Children had books. I had to be firm with behaviour, schools had very clear behaviour policies in place, and the head would have an overview, was visible, check classes, be the ‘go to’ person if anything was difficult to manage. Over the years, particularly in the Early Years things have changed massively. My latest role has involved a manager who is mostly on the computer and rarely interacts with the children. No planning, no assessment. Resources are put out, but there is an ethos that it’s ‘wrong’ to show the children how to use them. Therefore children don’t use jigsaws as puzzles, they take the pieces out and transport them round the classroom. A doctors role play is set up, but with no input as to what the resources are there are for or how to role play ‘being a doctor’. There is an expectation, a ‘box’ of what constitutes ‘normal’ behaviour : even with very young children. Any child who is outside this box, is often labelled ‘I think they’ve got autism, I think they’ve got ADHD’ without a formal assessment. These children - rather than getting to know them, or putting clear strategies in place, are quickly labelled as difficult : and fall into a stereotype that causes a negative cycle. There seems to be little ‘fault’ addressed to the teaching style, and the ‘fault??’ is centred on the child, I’d also argue that it is NOT a fault. It’s called being a child. Children seem to be very readily excluded from schools without the adults fully questioning their teaching style and whether that might be at fault. To be completely honest, teaching was far easier 30 years ago. Children were better behaved, and there was far better, stronger support from senior management. It felt more like a team, rather than: an SLT who are in meetings, on a computer, off to conferences, in the staff room, pushing ‘new’ initiatives and criticising their staff.

LittleBearPad · 22/11/2024 23:32

Reugny · 22/11/2024 10:02

Parents cannot help it if they cannot afford a decent place to live.

Have you missed the issue with social housing and how councils and HA treat their tenants?

It has taken a 2 year old to die and about a dozen reporters to showcase what councils and HA, with their overpaid bosses, get up to or rather don't when it comes to making their homes fit for human habitation.

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So which of these do you think parents can’t influence/control?

Being neglected at home, but not removed because there were literally no foster carers / moved into care 500 miles away because it was the only foster placement available
Watching violent porn at age 11
Stuck in their bedrooms all evening and weekends on devices because there are no heap or free youth activity or social clubs, or no transport to get them there.
Contactable 24/7 through social media / smartphones, and riddled with anxiety.
Living in poverty but watching influencers living heavenly-looking lives, daring to dream it might be possible for them before reality hits.
Brought up in a home where adults interacted with their personal screens more than their children.

hellooooooomama · 22/11/2024 23:08

Also, imagine the stuff you wouldn't even find if you were just relying on the Internet.

The curriculum takes children many places they wouldn't otherwise go, sometimes sparking lifelong interests.

That must be one of the best things about teaching. I'm not a teacher but I imagine it must be.

noblegiraffe · 22/11/2024 23:06

You can't be creative without underlying knowledge.

And without knowledge you don't know what you don't know.

hellooooooomama · 22/11/2024 23:06

I disagree that you don't need to remember stuff. You can't spend your whole life looking stuff up, especially if you plan on making a living out of it!

Anyway there is much more to learning than simply knowing facts.

noblegiraffe · 22/11/2024 22:51

Children today are digital natives

They really aren't. They are absolutely shit at using computers and doing basic stuff that kids of the 90s are brilliant at.

benefitstaxcredithelp · 22/11/2024 22:46

NeelyOHara1 · 22/11/2024 19:12

On a sidenote, I was just thinking the other day that the age old question of 'what's the point of my learning about x,y,z', has been made even harder to answer, by children having a source of information about pretty much everything, in a small device in their hands...

I think this is a really good point

Despite the fact that information online can be reliable or unreliable (depending on the source), having it at our finger tips certainly does make a sort of mockery of the whole process of memorising and regurgitating information and facts. Ie the curriculum and qualification system we have. Children today are digital natives and to them it is kind of pointless to learn facts to regurgitate for an exam to then be able to look it up again in a split second. I’m not saying all learning is pointless in school today but certainly the way we measure it has to be modernised. I’d go as far to say this information accessibility is partly what is disengaging young people.

BlueSilverCats · 22/11/2024 20:27

NeelyOHara1 · 22/11/2024 19:12

On a sidenote, I was just thinking the other day that the age old question of 'what's the point of my learning about x,y,z', has been made even harder to answer, by children having a source of information about pretty much everything, in a small device in their hands...

If only that information was always accurate and unbiased...

Futurethinking2026 · 22/11/2024 20:11

crazyunicornlady73 · 22/11/2024 19:51

Are you in the U.K?

This is not at all my experience of EYFS teaching.

Modelling, playing with the children, challenging them, showing them new things they can do, asking them questions, in the moment planning. These are all things that absolutely should and must be happening in the EYFS.

If you are putting stuff out then leaving the kids to freely run around the setting with it then I feel like you may have misunderstood something or you school has a very unusual ethos.

This is a quote from the EYFS framework for example:

' With reference to play, 'Play and Exploration' is a commitment which comes under 'Learning & Development'. There are six areas of Learning & Development all of which, according to the EYFS framework, 'must be delivered through planned, purposeful play, with a balance of adult led and child initiated activities'.

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Id take what she’s saying with a pinch of salt as in her OP she states she didn’t have a TA (or any other adult) yet she goes on to say, one adult would do jigsaws and another learn them to use scissors etc.

crazyunicornlady73 · 22/11/2024 19:54

RebelBabybel · 21/11/2024 18:11

A just want to state an incident that happened to me last week.
A SENCO came up to me and said ‘that child’s non verbal, and don’t get too close or he’ll hit you.’
I smiled and played with him for a bit. He loves singing.

I sang with him and he was finishing lines of the song,
He also said some words to me.
I reported this back.
I’d say the SENCO was pissed off, because he’d behaved differently to her assessment of him.
There was no, that’s great - or praising the child.

Her ego was more important than the child’s well being.

Oh!
Well your approach sounds lovely, the SENDCo not so much.

I think the problems you are describing may be quite specific to your school.

crazyunicornlady73 · 22/11/2024 19:51

RebelBabybel · 21/11/2024 17:58

@cansu

I’m not so sure. There seems to have been a movement away from planning with children. It seems a lot more lax. With the youngest children, we used to have clear roles for each adult in the classroom.
One adult would play a board game, or teach how to use scissors.
Now these things are put out, but with no guidance. So the board game is distributed around the classroom and pieces lost - while the adults cut out Twinkl signs or are called out to a meeting, leaving one person trying to cope with behaviour.

Edited

Are you in the U.K?

This is not at all my experience of EYFS teaching.

Modelling, playing with the children, challenging them, showing them new things they can do, asking them questions, in the moment planning. These are all things that absolutely should and must be happening in the EYFS.

If you are putting stuff out then leaving the kids to freely run around the setting with it then I feel like you may have misunderstood something or you school has a very unusual ethos.

This is a quote from the EYFS framework for example:

' With reference to play, 'Play and Exploration' is a commitment which comes under 'Learning & Development'. There are six areas of Learning & Development all of which, according to the EYFS framework, 'must be delivered through planned, purposeful play, with a balance of adult led and child initiated activities'.

Maria1979 · 22/11/2024 19:43

BlueSilverCats · 22/11/2024 16:50

I'm not saying that there are parents out there who could not do a lot better- but school is supposed to intervene and break the chain of poverty/abuse/social problems etc. The last government turned them into a prosecutor instead and they see abuse everywhere instead of where the true fault lies.

How? How exactly are "schools" supposed to that?

I can't provide housing. I can't make mum dump the druggie boyfriend. I can't stop parents beating each other up or/and their kids. I can't pay for their bare necessities. I can't make the kids unlearn violent behaviour or aggressive language /swearing . I can't make a parent stop being an alcoholic or drug addict. I can't "heal" a parent of their learning disabilities or mental health issues or their personality disorders. I can't make a parent love their child. I can't make a parent care.

So instead I make dozens of reports that rarely go anywhere, I ring SS in my own time, I feed kids, I clean kids, I buy them stuff (from essentials like food and colouring pencils to little treats and rewards), I model good behaviour and conflict resolution, I am their safe space, I let them rant and rave and hold them when they cry and listen to their disclosures, I am their punching bag (emotionally and physically ) , I adapt to their needs, I try to teach them what I can and what they can , day in, day out and it's still not enough and it doesn't fucking work. But I'm still there the next day, ready to try again.

I feel my eyes starting to prickle. Thank you for being a kind, generous person to those who need it the most. 💐

Maria1979 · 22/11/2024 19:35

coxesorangepippin · 21/11/2024 18:32

She was no problem in the classroom, but difficult to manage at home,
^

This is hugely important. Why could she be managed in the classroom, but not at home??

I'm thinking that the adult in charge has something to do with it

Most children who are not feeling mentally well will act out where they feel safe. Home is usually a child's safe place. When that isn't the case then the child will act out in school. I have witnessed this over and over.

noblegiraffe · 22/11/2024 19:31

And Finland's education system is going down the toilet.

Original poster

RebelBabybel · 22/11/2024 19:26

“Finland's special needs education system aims to help students with special needs complete compulsory school alongside their peers. The system is based on the idea of integrating students into mainstream education whenever possible.”

“Finnish legislation does not categorise learners according to disabilities or difficulties.”

OP posts:

NeelyOHara1 · 22/11/2024 19:12

On a sidenote, I was just thinking the other day that the age old question of 'what's the point of my learning about x,y,z', has been made even harder to answer, by children having a source of information about pretty much everything, in a small device in their hands...

hellooooooomama · 22/11/2024 18:27

BlueSilverCats · 22/11/2024 16:50

I'm not saying that there are parents out there who could not do a lot better- but school is supposed to intervene and break the chain of poverty/abuse/social problems etc. The last government turned them into a prosecutor instead and they see abuse everywhere instead of where the true fault lies.

How? How exactly are "schools" supposed to that?

I can't provide housing. I can't make mum dump the druggie boyfriend. I can't stop parents beating each other up or/and their kids. I can't pay for their bare necessities. I can't make the kids unlearn violent behaviour or aggressive language /swearing . I can't make a parent stop being an alcoholic or drug addict. I can't "heal" a parent of their learning disabilities or mental health issues or their personality disorders. I can't make a parent love their child. I can't make a parent care.

So instead I make dozens of reports that rarely go anywhere, I ring SS in my own time, I feed kids, I clean kids, I buy them stuff (from essentials like food and colouring pencils to little treats and rewards), I model good behaviour and conflict resolution, I am their safe space, I let them rant and rave and hold them when they cry and listen to their disclosures, I am their punching bag (emotionally and physically ) , I adapt to their needs, I try to teach them what I can and what they can , day in, day out and it's still not enough and it doesn't fucking work. But I'm still there the next day, ready to try again.

Very emotional post.

You're a special person. Incredibly special.

Whoyergonnacall · 22/11/2024 17:53

BlueSilverCats · 22/11/2024 16:35

@wellington77 sometimes teachers do get it wrong though.

DD had two questions marked wrong on her test. I encouraged her to POLITELY talk to the teacher and ask for clarification. She got the one mark and the other the teacher agreed that while technically right, it didn't match the scheme so she couldn't award it to her and explained how to get that particular answer. Now she knows for next time, whereas if she hadn't asked she would've kept getting it wrong.

Teachers are humans , they will make mistakes. They're not infallible and they don't actually know everything. No one does.It happens, it's not the end of the world. As for experts, given the cuts, you'll find the expert being a TA or the PE teacher teaching Maths or English or Science.

This is quite interesting about being right but not the answer in the mark scheme. I was chatting to someone from and education think tank that said if you want all schools to be “good” (which I think means not “bad” in this context) then you need top down prescriptions on teaching etc. But if you want schools to be “great” then schools and teachers need more discretion. You want children to be able to think broadly and critically rather than to identify a specific outcome as those will be the kinds of skills that drive economic growth in future.

Sorry it’s a bit broader than your daughter (who sounds great btw) but it reminded me of the point.

Lbdtj85r · 22/11/2024 17:16

I definitely think more kids are diagnosed as ND but for all the ones I know, you can definitely also see it in their family. Doesn't mean they are all disruptive in class though. I run a beavers group in a school and you definitely get kids every year who are very disruptive. These are all middle class kids though of course no idea what happens at home. In my kids classes - there are always at least three who are permanently disruptive, plus a few more who are clearly behind their academics. No idea how the teachers manage.

margegunderson · 22/11/2024 17:15

I suspect it goes back to the change in early years settings. My oldest kids went to playgroup where activities were set up some of which had a clear outcome (think making a pirate hat or decorating one). By the time my youngest went five years later thiose activities were deemed "too directional". Play could happen in or out at any time so basically a gang of boys marouded in and out while the girls stayed inside. It was chaotic, nobody was helped to learn scissor or other skills and my DS hated it. His siblings had adored it. The playgroup said the change had been made in light of what ofsted wanted to see.

Sherrystrull · 22/11/2024 16:57

BlueSilverCats · 22/11/2024 16:50

I'm not saying that there are parents out there who could not do a lot better- but school is supposed to intervene and break the chain of poverty/abuse/social problems etc. The last government turned them into a prosecutor instead and they see abuse everywhere instead of where the true fault lies.

How? How exactly are "schools" supposed to that?

I can't provide housing. I can't make mum dump the druggie boyfriend. I can't stop parents beating each other up or/and their kids. I can't pay for their bare necessities. I can't make the kids unlearn violent behaviour or aggressive language /swearing . I can't make a parent stop being an alcoholic or drug addict. I can't "heal" a parent of their learning disabilities or mental health issues or their personality disorders. I can't make a parent love their child. I can't make a parent care.

So instead I make dozens of reports that rarely go anywhere, I ring SS in my own time, I feed kids, I clean kids, I buy them stuff (from essentials like food and colouring pencils to little treats and rewards), I model good behaviour and conflict resolution, I am their safe space, I let them rant and rave and hold them when they cry and listen to their disclosures, I am their punching bag (emotionally and physically ) , I adapt to their needs, I try to teach them what I can and what they can , day in, day out and it's still not enough and it doesn't fucking work. But I'm still there the next day, ready to try again.

Hear hear.

Sherrystrull · 22/11/2024 16:52

noblegiraffe · 22/11/2024 11:15

Schools and pupils were promised that they would be able to catch up after Covid. In most cases nothing at all was offered.

That was a failure of government. The Covid catch-up tsar resigned over it.

In fact, in Year 2 the year after Covid in 2021 we were told Covid was no excuse at all for children not making the same levels as previous years. Wilfully ignoring the 2 terms of school they have missed and the full term of 'bubbles' that had caused so much disruption. I'm still appalled at the stress that caused staff and children.

BlueSilverCats · 22/11/2024 16:50

I'm not saying that there are parents out there who could not do a lot better- but school is supposed to intervene and break the chain of poverty/abuse/social problems etc. The last government turned them into a prosecutor instead and they see abuse everywhere instead of where the true fault lies.

How? How exactly are "schools" supposed to that?

I can't provide housing. I can't make mum dump the druggie boyfriend. I can't stop parents beating each other up or/and their kids. I can't pay for their bare necessities. I can't make the kids unlearn violent behaviour or aggressive language /swearing . I can't make a parent stop being an alcoholic or drug addict. I can't "heal" a parent of their learning disabilities or mental health issues or their personality disorders. I can't make a parent love their child. I can't make a parent care.

So instead I make dozens of reports that rarely go anywhere, I ring SS in my own time, I feed kids, I clean kids, I buy them stuff (from essentials like food and colouring pencils to little treats and rewards), I model good behaviour and conflict resolution, I am their safe space, I let them rant and rave and hold them when they cry and listen to their disclosures, I am their punching bag (emotionally and physically ) , I adapt to their needs, I try to teach them what I can and what they can , day in, day out and it's still not enough and it doesn't fucking work. But I'm still there the next day, ready to try again.

BlueSilverCats · 22/11/2024 16:35

@wellington77 sometimes teachers do get it wrong though.

DD had two questions marked wrong on her test. I encouraged her to POLITELY talk to the teacher and ask for clarification. She got the one mark and the other the teacher agreed that while technically right, it didn't match the scheme so she couldn't award it to her and explained how to get that particular answer. Now she knows for next time, whereas if she hadn't asked she would've kept getting it wrong.

Teachers are humans , they will make mistakes. They're not infallible and they don't actually know everything. No one does.It happens, it's not the end of the world. As for experts, given the cuts, you'll find the expert being a TA or the PE teacher teaching Maths or English or Science.

Appuskidu · 22/11/2024 16:34

BlueSilverCats · 22/11/2024 16:18

That still happens, again, in all the schools I'm familiar with.

Long term plans, medium term plans, weekly plans, overviews, assessments , learning journals.Book scrutinies, learning walks etc.

Your school sounds crap. It happens. It doesn't mean that it applies everywhere else .

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I agree-this still happens in all schools I work with.

We don’t have to hand write planning any more though. Which is a good thing. Though I’m sure you still could if you wanted to, but it’s not somehow better 😂

BlueSilverCats · 22/11/2024 16:18

RebelBabybel · 22/11/2024 10:43

And we had to mark and check work. The head would check this, and we’d have to hand in our planning/evaluation every week to be checked. All hand written.

That still happens, again, in all the schools I'm familiar with.

Long term plans, medium term plans, weekly plans, overviews, assessments , learning journals.Book scrutinies, learning walks etc.

Your school sounds crap. It happens. It doesn't mean that it applies everywhere else .