To think something has gone wrong in schools? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz0m2x30p4eo

This certainly wasn't true of my infant school experience 30 years ago, we were sat round tables from day dot in reception. In fact I vividly remember my first day of school, we had to copy sums from the board and read flash cards, not something my children did on their first day. I also found one of my school books recently from when I was 5, we wrote weekend reports each Monday and were using full sentences and being corrected on spelling, again not something my daughter is doing yet.

Inclusion per se is a Good Thing when done properly. Our village school has enhanced funding for severe additional needs so even though it’s a mainstream primary they have hoists and lifts and massive bathrooms and all sorts of equipment. The kids with additional needs are all in with the mainstream. My children wouldn’t have come across severe physical disability in any other sphere but they rarely commented. It just wasn’t a thing.

There was a little girl in my son’s class who had a genetic issue and some deformities of her hands and feet. My son said “Ivy does my spellings and I do her laces.” His learning partner that year was a child who was functionally blind and he chatted to me at home time and said “I’m different to Josh, because I don’t like peas and he likes peas.” Then he and Josh couldn’t breathe they were laughing so hard because one of them said “pea-ness”.

'Over the years, particularly in the Early Years things have changed massively.
My latest role has involved a manager who is mostly on the computer and rarely interacts with the children. No planning, no assessment. Resources are put out, but there is an ethos that it’s ‘wrong’ to show the children how to use them. Therefore children don’t use jigsaws as puzzles, they take the pieces out and transport them round the classroom. A doctors role play is set up, but with no input as to what the resources are there are for or how to role play ‘being a doctor’.

This is absolutely not my experience of Early Years. I've worked in many schools over the last 22 years, almost exclusively in Early Years and I have NEVER seen 'an ethos where it's wrong to show children how to use resources'

There is now more emphasis in EY on encouraging children to develop their own interests, but that absolutely doesn't mean it's a free for all! What it does do is recognise that young children learn most effectively when they are interested in something and will therefore be motivated to concentrate for longer and think more deeply about what they are doing. However what I've experienced throughout my years in schools and EY settings is children being explicitly taught how to use resources, how to behave etc.

It's sad that your experience has been one of poor EY teachers and poor EY practice. I would robustly dispute that what you're describing is the norm though.

I was in infant school 30 odd years ago and vividly remember the SEN kids. Only they weren’t the SEN kids…. They were just Daniel who had one of us read to him and help him with his cutting. Or Anne who preferred to spend her break times ‘helping’ with playground duty. It was so very much integrated and every child was heard. There was far less academic work and an awful lot of raising decent people.

You can't just lower standards to accommodate less able children or those with a chaotic home life. That is totally counterproductive because kids leave school and need to enter the workplace where you need advanced skills. There aren't that many non-skilled jobs around nowadays, the days of kids being factory fodder or working down t'pit are long gone.

You never came across them because they were educated apart, in (to use the terminology of the time) special schools for mentally and for physically handicapped children. I remember doing lesson observations in one around 1970.

There were ESN and SESN schools, for educationally subnormal and severely educationally subnormal children. However appalling we’d find those terms now it doesn’t seem that I’m misremembering them.

As @noblegiraffe says above, David Blunkett was the Ed Sec whose policy of inclusion in the late 90s saw the widespread closure of special schools. The idea was the all but the most seriously disabled children would be educated in mainstream.

I have no idea if they were ever funded properly in mainstream. I would like to think they were, but it seems unlikely.

This thread is sad and worrying, but interesting.

30 years ago I was in year 5. Have been thinking about my primary school recently - in hindsight it seems such a good place. Caring, sharing, learning about difference but everyone being treated as equal, being taught good values - explicitly taught, talked about whenever something came up.

It was considered to be the roughest primary school in the area (a quick search on MN tells me it still is!) but they just seemed to do all the above so well. Class sizes were smaller, although not hugely (maybe 28?). In my class we had a couple of children who lost parents young, a child living in (in hindsight) absolute poverty with 10 siblings in a small house, a couple of really badly behaved boys, a couple of pupils who came and went a few times (nearby traveller's site), a pupil who lived with a grandparent (no idea why), several BAME pupils (a few newly arrived), children of very young single mothers without much money, loads of kids from poorer backgrounds actually, a boy raised by a single dad who was actually neglected, at least one refugee...
But we didn't have the problems detailed on this thread.

I think something has gone wrong in society. Or several somethings coming together. We know neglect and neurodiversity can look similar. I myself am one of the previously undiagnosed neurodiverse people, so I'm not saying that all kids now diagnosed don't have those issues. But I wonder how much is made worse by poor parenting/other social issues, or even where that is the sole cause.

A family member was a nursery teacher and I remember her being shocked and saddened when doing pre-nursery home visits - kids still in nappies, kids not being spoken to at home (whilst TV blaring nonstop), not being taught basic things by parents, neglect. (She was so frustrated at the Ofsted standards because they didn't seem to take into account the starting level of kids and their progress, just whether they'd reached the expected standard or not!) This was almost 25 years ago, and a nursery in a very rough area, but I wonder if this sort of thing is more widespread now?

Perhaps the same sort of people who were just about managing 30 years ago - when one wage was enough, with a parent at home or working very part time, with a simpler less 24/7 alert lifestyle - are not managing any more. Perhaps they are somewhat neurodiverse, perhaps other reasons. Because modern life is so demanding they are not coping, children are neglected, not taught basic behaviour, surrounded by more volatile relationships so more trauma. And schools are just seeing the results of this.

Apologies for the long rambles, just been pondering this recently!

I don't understand why some schools have gone down this road, my daughter's reception class is quite old school in this respect. They still take groups of children to the craft table and direct them how to do it, the TAs and teacher will often model what is supposed to be done with resources and they don't allow them to be tipped out or messed up for no good reason. I think we've found a bit of a moon on a stick though, class of 20 with one teacher and two TAs, I wish all schools could be more like this

This sounds like a crap teacher, but doesn't mean that the whole of EY is flawed.

It all appeared to be imploding well over a decade ago. I only had to listen to my head teacher MIL for 5 minutes to realise that. Her utter frustration and sometimes vile comments about her pupils helped cement our decision to home educate.

That was 15 years ago. Reading all these comments makes me very glad my children haven't been put through the wringer system.

In the 1990s there was an issue with adult literacy and it wasn’t uncommon for adults to not be able to read. Children with sen were not catered for and left school with nothing. Schools were awful. They are much better now but still have a long way to go to be truly child centered.

Part of the issue is parenting

How is a kid appearing at school at 4/5 not knowing how to do a simple jigsaw puzzle, role play doctors, or use scissors?

Children usually just imitate adults, you don't "show them" how to role play doctors. Its experience based. If theyve been in in hospital they might pretend cannulas with a bandaged hand or an oxygen mask etc. If they haven't they'll pretend giving syringes of calpol or GP type activities like looking in ears/throats, or want to stick endless plasters on your arms.

Teaching literally is something else now. I'm 21 years in and absolutely would not go into it now if I had my time again.
I went in it for the children.

The expectations 30 years ago would have been vastly different to now - so more and more children are unable to meet targets and that “problem” presents itself in different ways - kids becoming disheartened because they can’t reach an arbitrary target, stressed pressured teachers who are forced to teach to the test instead of general education, it all mounts up.

40 years ago when I was at school, I’d have been on the SEN register, probably with an EHCP for anxiety and hyper mobility. Instead they made me the library monitor and said I could hang out in the office with Mrs. Ryan the school secretary rather than do PE.

I think the main thing here is how remarkable (the large majority) of teachers really are. It’s so underpaid and undervalued and I take my hats off to you

Literally this. I don’t buy the ‘but they were always there’ arguement. think we need to look at technology and the impact of screens with young children, at diet and UPFs and at medicine and figure out what is contributing to all of this. Of course, autism etc exists but the explosion of it is really unfathomable

people Won’t want to admit it also but the increase in diagnosis and correlation with claiming of things such as DLA which can be a lot of money when combined with carers allowance, disabled payment on UC etc. benefits are now much better paying that most professional jobs when combined with all the ‘elements’ and of course you can’t blame people for doing what they think is right for their family
i feel sad so many children are getting written off and not supported.
every time I’m on a bus etc I look around and see parents ignoring their children just mindlessly scrolling their phones. TikTok blasting out over their child crying or wanting to chat. These children pick up on that and will think they need to exhibit extreme behaviour to get attention- it’s not rocket science.
It’s sad what we’ve done to our society. I wonder if it’s the same in other countries?

And for the sniffy, sarky posters here - do you think you know it all? What’s the answer then - let’s hear it?

I certainly wouldn't claim to know it all, but I think your insistence that everyone was just fine and dandy and in school learning back in the day with a bit of firm discipline, hardly anyone had SEN and everyone was wonderfully included is bollocks. I also think that your assertion that kids today are being diagnosed with SEN merely for not 'fitting into a box' is rubbish. I think your claim that teachers aren't allowed to tell kids how to use a jigsaw is bullshit.

David Blunkett was the Ed Sec whose policy of inclusion in the late 90s saw the widespread closure of special schools. The idea was the all but the most seriously disabled children would be educated in mainstream. This was while you were teaching so you should have noticed the increasing number of children with SEN in your classes. That policy has been a failure, but those special schools are gone.

Since 2010 school funding has been subject to a policy of austerity. The first people to lose their jobs were teaching assistants and pastoral workers. A huge amount of support that could be allocated to pupils with difficulties disappeared.

Then in 2015 the funding system for special needs changed. School funds had shrunk, and now the only way to get additional funding for pupils with SEN is if they have an EHCP. Schools are desperate for extra money and the number of pupils with EHCPs has doubled since then. (This doesn't necessarily mean that schools are making up the needs, rather that pupils could get extra funding before the changes without an EHCP, and there was more money in schools generally so EHCPs weren't as urgently required). This has put pressure on councils who are now bankrupting themselves with the cost of SEN funding so they now routinely reject any application for an EHCP, including kids with extreme needs, so those kids go unsupported, end up more likely to be excluded as they can't cope with school and school can't cope with them. An exclusion is sometimes the only way to get them an appropriate placement.

There has been an increase in diagnoses of SEN, not sure if it is clear if it is better recognition, or environmental factors, or things like increasing premature births or whatever, but we've also had a pandemic and a definite increase in children with e.g. speech and language issues as a result. There's also a mental health crisis in both children and adults (which will affect children as well) and a huge increase in child poverty which will impact behaviour in school.

At the same time there has been a huge turnover in school staff. Teachers leaving and being replaced by a series of supply teachers. Lack of experienced staff. Kids form a relationship with a TA or pastoral leader only for them to leave. That also has an impact, particularly on kids who need stability and routine.

Solutions? Massive funding for SEN support, taking the responsibility away from councils so they can focus on potholes and bin collections. More special schools, properly staffed. More properly trained SEN staff in schools. Overhaul of the EHCP system. Fixing teacher workload so that schools can recruit and retain a stable workforce. Reducing the curriculum in primary and secondary and giving more time to creative and physical subjects. Stop forcing kids who can't reliably add up to sit GCSE Maths. Give everyone in schools a bit of room to breathe.

for a start.

The biggest difference between my DD’s school experience and mine (apart from the weird & overly rigid Gove-ish curriculum) is the number of ESL speakers.

Only 43% of her school speak English as the main language at home and there are over 50
different home languages amongst the student population.
Obvs this is going to have a knock on effect in terms of how engaged the students will be with a curriculum that they may not completely understand, how much parents can help with homework and how well parents communicate with the school.

I LOVE my DD’s school, she has a diverse group of friends who are really supportive of each other and the school has very high expectations for behaviour (but is also very clear about what the rules are and the escalating consequences for breaking them which creates a sense of fairness). It’s quite relaxed on the uniform rules though and it’s all girls (something my DD was set on having spent all of primary being made to sit beside the most disruptive boys as a classroom behaviour management strategy).

My mind genuinely boggles at the thought of teaching children from over 40 different home languages but a quick google says that there are over 300 home languages amongst UK school children (!) and while I’m sure the amount of home language diversity in a single school will vary by region and urban/rural areas, in my time there were only two families with ESL in my whole secondary school.

Add in all the stuff re: housing instability, lack of appropriate SEN provision, difficulty in accessing EHCP funding from the LA, huge amounts of screen time, families with 2 working parents and social-media induced anxiety already discussed upthread, plus the loss of Sure Start and youth clubs, overstretched Social Services and not enough Foster provision (something unlikely to improve when the high cost of housing makes an additional bedroom unfeasible) and increased waiting times for all NHS services both physical and mental and it’s a wonder schools are managing as well as they are! Especially with cutbacks on the fun lessons that used to motivate kids into a) attending school and b) behaving in the loathed lessons (art, drama, music etc).

I’d call it a miracle that schools haven’t collapsed already but it’s not luck or magic it’s due to the hard work of teachers.

I’d say I’m surprised that permanent exclusions aren’t a lot higher but IME the bar for justifying a permanent exclusion is so high that many children are suffering unnecessarily, either due to sharing a classroom with a child whose behaviour threatens everyone’s safety or due to being a child with challenging behaviour as a symptom of something (trauma, unmet SEN
needs etc) who would actually benefit from being in a PRU or similar alternative educational provision.

I agree something has gone wrong, but I don't think it's primarily with the schools. It starts in the home.

I went to school in the 90s in a nice rural area. Some very happy memories but some of the behaviour was shocking! Lots of children were either not supported or just written off.

We also learnt much less. I do think the curriculum is far too overpacked now but in general standards have risen. SEN children are now more effectively supported. I was an SEN kid in the 90s and often told off a lot for stuff I couldn't help (not bad behaviour but poor presentation etc.).

I don't think education is perfect by any means but I don't think it was a utopia 30 years ago. In the twelve years I've taught lots of things have improved. The thing that's really hammering us is budget cuts.

I've never heard of or seen children not being shown how to use resources in any early years setting

I think the OP has forgotten about the use of long stay hospitals for those with learning difficulties - from age 5. The last of which shut in 2008! My first teaching job was teaching those who were being released in an adult education college. Have a look on YouTube for the ITV documentary ‘The Silent Minority’.
One of my student’s clearly remembered being pulled out of primary school to be told by his HT he wasn’t allowed to come to school anymore (due to his learning difficulties).
Education has changed hugely and we are now dealing with the growing pains.

Hi there I don’t have a dog in the fight but I’m interested.

What is the ratio between the number of places required and the number of places provided? There may be more places in absolute terms but if supply exceeds demand then it would effectively be a cut in provision which I think is what posters are pointing out.

The type of report you want would take longer than any other without the computerised comment banks + a short free text paragraph.

For the banked comments reports, somebody sets up the comments and marksheet templates, then the teacher selects the number for each and clicks save.

The expected level is a reference aspect. The actual level is a number which takes a second to enter, to add in free text for something particularly impressive and something to improve upon for each subject would massively increase the length of time unless they were also reduced to comment banks.

Of course, you then have the simpler number reports in secondary of expected level/grade, actual level and effort/behaviour - some parents are enraged by it being numbers rather than writing or want it read out to them line by line along with the explanation of the columns that's already printed on the report. And staff aren't fans of those, either, even with 6-30 weeks' notice, everything set up for them, collated, checked, chased when the deadlines are missed and they're planned to spread out the workload over the term. We're not even going into why some parents then complain they have too many reports as well as not enough and no updates between reports and parents' evenings that they haven't attended.

Report production is a Kobayashi scenario. It always causes issues, no matter how many, how few, how they look, the information on them - just the fact of their existence means there will be complaints on both sides of the gates.

Thank you for raising this. Our experience in school has been awful and I'm now home schooling DS through GCSEs.

At the same time, getting health care for child or maternal health problems has been disasterously difficult.

The two things together has made things impossible for us.

We tried so hard and the system is treating us as disposable.