To expect parents in mid '70's to host Christmas with very young children?

When my adult children come with their partners for Christmas they all get into the kitchen and help - in fact I have to shoo them away as there's not room!

Although they won't want the single daughter to be on her own they may like to discuss ahead of the day how long she'll stay. IF they find it tiring.

I agree that 75 is hardly old nowadays.

IMO arriving on the 23rd or even the 24th and leaving on the 27th is long enough, but depends if she's relying on trains or driving.

It just gets worse and worse. Your hard-working sister was rightly upset that her learning was being disrupted by bad behaviour, and because of this was singled out for violence by a group of boys, and your issue is that your brother had to deal with the inconvenience of protecting her.

Then you tell this bizarre story about Boxing Day, obviously entirely from your perspective, and expect us to believe there was nothing more to it, despite the fact you are openly and obviously horrible to your sister. And don't try and say you're not, I'm not assuming or extrapolating anything here, the behaviour you have described and the way you speak about her is horrible.

And you keep coming back to how your parents are too old to host. My Mum (65) is retired, my Dad (71) is working, supposed part-time but in reality covering at least 40 hours a week. And as a HOBBY in their spare time they RUN A B & B. A B & B with a Booking.com rating of 9.9 and considered the best in the area by quite some way.

They have 4 or 5 people staying most weekends, and have been inviting my daughter over for weekly sleepovers since she was 2. My husband also has a "difficult" sister, and his parents are not in the picture. My parents have invited his sister and her son for Christmas every year (although this year will be the first time she's taken them up on it) despite the fact they are no relation to her.

If she doesn’t have the space and they will be too exhausted why don’t they just book a restaurant/ pub? Honestly don’t understand why families don’t just talk to each other. It’s not that hard

I absolutely agree with this, I've been thinking this while reading the whole thread. The parents are in their 70s and of sound mind. I can't see why they're incapable of deciding what they should do for Christmas. I also find this idea of them being 'too old to host' pretty patronising. My mum is in her 70s and I think she'd be insulted if I spoke that way about her.

We have a very difficult character in our family. I try to help my mum work out how to deal with that person when she asks and I give her emotional support when she's upset, but I wouldn't dream of trying to organise her interactions with him for her. She's an adult. At the end of the day it's up to her.

I also can't get over the fact that the OPs original suggestion was leaving her sister alone with no family other than two small children over Christmas. The whole of the rest of the thread seems to be trying to justify this. Yes the sister sounds difficult but if she's trying to make amends and develop a good relationship between her kids and their grandparents then telling her to sod off over Christmas just seems wrong. Unless the fear is that she's going to be abusive to her parents over Christmas, but the OP's biggest concern at the start of the thread is that her parents might get tired.

A very sensible post, imo @Birminghamx and @BeautifulSkiez

Just a word of reassurance though: we, DH and I, live in a beautiful part of England, plenty of Airbnb's still available. 2 lots of wider family members have just booked up (fully refundable to a certain point) as they all come to us for Christmas and we live in a smallish, 3 bedroomed bungalow, so are already full up with adult children, late 20's, partners and very small grandchildren all staying for 5 or 6 days. Looking forward to it and yes, it will take us a few days to recover gently but so be it! All helpful btw

I agree with this. And I realise OP gave the back story, including the "single by choice" thing because we asked, but tbh none of it really changes anything. It still comes down to "my sister doesn't deserve a family Christmas because she isn't a perfect victim and I don't like some of her choices". Everything is her fault, past the stuff she potentially actually is responsible for. Boys bullying her at school, her baby was fractious, plus the obvious judgement in things like where she chooses to live and the rather silly comment about how her work colleagues would be shocked if they saw her at her absolute worst during a family row. Is that not true of many people?

Sure, she isn't perfect, but she's also being set up to always be in the wrong no matter what, so why should she try to please you?

And as has been said over and over, your parents can make their own decisions about their relationship with her. It's hardly surprising if she isn't top notch with interpersonal relationships when her family doesn't think she deserves them.

She does sound difficult, so it's hard to see how telling her she can't join the family Christmas is going to do anything other than cause a rift. Which your parents don't want. So I'd suck it up.

The school bullying story was a bit startling, wasn't it? Imagine being a thirteen year-old in that situation, and your older sister blaming you for it. No wonder she stopped being 'happy and full of plans'.

I can't remember if distances have been mentioned before, but would anyone need to stay any more than one night (or even not stay over at all)? Why do we get obsessed with overnighting at Christmas, it really muddies the water.

I dont know op, I think you'd do well to consider that given how you speak about her here, and your description of how you and your family speak about her , your sister knows well how you all feel about her. I mean you appear to be blaming her for annoying the boys in her class at school so that your brother had to keep her safe from what sounds like more than one person attacking her?

And maybe yes, maybe you care deeply about her and I hope you do but I really dont see how you will ever persuade her of that if what youve what you've written here is a true reflection of how you think.

You're muddling up two different things.

The OP said no one could object to the suggestion to her parents to do their own thing. That's not the same as saying 'we don't want to be with you at Christmas'.

It's giving the parents the option to do whatever they want.

Also, she's not thinking her parents can't decide for themselves. This is what I meant about jumping to conclusions.

There is a difference between wanting to do something but feeling you have an obligation to spend it with your family.

Just because they've not done this before doesn't mean they aren't thinking about it or dreaming about it - does it?

It could very easily mean they feel obliged to host the single daughter and don't want to hurt her feelings.

Nothing to do with not having other ideas.

It's not a jumping to conclusions. The Op said she doesn't see how anyone could object to the suggestion that her parents go on a cruise, I gave an example of someone who absolutely would reject that suggestion. Absolutely some people cannot think of anything better than a quiet time away in the sun as a couple, others wouldn't dream of it. The OP seems to think her parents can't decide for themselves. If they fancy a cruise, I'm sure they can come up with the idea themselves.

They can control how long she stays. Two or three nights- not 5.

However, you seem to infantalise your parents quite a bit - suggesting that they go on a cruise and they be alone for Christmas, and "can't see how anyone would object" seems a bit wild to me. My mum wouldn't dream of a Christmas where she isn't in the company of family.

Posters jump to wild conclusions all the time here! Maybe if your mum is on her own fair enough but OPs are a couple.

I'm not as old as these parents but do have adult kids and grandchildren. I know that if we wanted to go on a cruise they'd not mind at all.

FWIW my own elderly parents and I have not spent Christmas day together for over 25 years because of the distance, a small house, and their increasing age.
It's not a disaster- it's one day and now we can all do video calls etc.

I understand your position a bit better in light of your updates, OP, and I can see why you don't want to spend Christmas with her, but most parents wouldn't leave their child and grandchildren alone over Christmas if they didn't have any other plans and that's pretty much the end of it, I'm afraid. Unless you're saying she poses an outright risk of deliberate harm to them then I think you need to leave them to it.

You're getting a hard time here @Birminghamx

Any grown woman who cuts herself off from her parents for 18 months because she didn't like a Boxing Day meal sounds unhinged, frankly.

You said she did that in one of your posts.

I also think that anyone who stays with older parents for 5 days (with 2 young children) needs to give their head a wobble.
It's just too long.

I have adult children and we see each other for just over 48 hours.
By that time, everyone is happy to get back to their own homes even though we all get on well.

IMO your concern is valid but maybe some straight talking is needed on all sides.

In your shoes I'd be talking to my parents and asking if they're happy for 'Mary' (your sister) to stay for 5 days as I noticed they were so tired last year. I'd suggest they laid down some boundaries along the lines of 'We love you being here but at our age 5 days is just too much'.

If 'Mary' is open to the same conversation, have it with her - or your brother could.

And next year consider an Airbnb but be warned they will start getting booked NOW for 2025.

I'd forget about the complicated family history and just focus on the fact that for most families, 5 days with kids in two is too long.

If your sis insists, she needs to roll up her sleeves and cook for your mid- 70s parents. On balance she comes over as being overindulged as a child and has turned into a bit of a spoilt-brat adult.

My mum has a very difficult sister who caused massive problems since the 1970s, so I get it can't be easy.

However, you seem to infantalise your parents quite a bit - suggesting that they go on a cruise and they be alone for Christmas, and "can't see how anyone would object" seems a bit wild to me. My mum wouldn't dream of a Christmas where she isn't in the company of family. Why isn't next year's suggestion that the sister comes to you and the parents go to your brother? The "maybe the parents should go on a cruise" suggestion is unnecessarily dramatic.

I'd just let your parents decide what they want for do, they are grown ups.

I think op has already said somewhere that she doesn’t have room for this because of her ILs?

I’m also not sure your comments about judgy pp not being helpful is fair. There have now been some significant drip feeds late in the piece, but if you go back to the original op it comes across as the issues being twofold:

1. Dsis has “ invited herself” before and again now but not hosted like everyone else ie; she isn’t doing her share ( albeit her flat is, we are told, tiny) do why should family have her?

1. Parents are at 70 too old to grapple with either hosting ( although they have accepted) or communicating this to the sister

And that’s pretty much it. So when you say people weren’t giving helpful thoughts or advice, they were: it isn’t right to uninvite your sister.

The posts bewailing the tremendous strain the sister had been on the family since the age of 13 did not emerge until far later in the piece - and even then some people might not have changed their “ helpful advice” from don’t rock the boat if a) you aren’t having her yourself and b) your parents have already agreed to.

There was a section of the thread where it just seemed every suggestion except leaving the sister to fend for herself was slapped down - at which point you think “ why even post asking for opinions when you know what you think ?” There is a similar thread going where a recently divorced man wants to move in his gf of 6 months and start producing new babies with her. He asked for “advice” because his child was begging him not to take these accelerated actions. Everyone but a few said “then don’t.” The op essentially responded “ I’m entitled to do as I please.” There are loads of these endorse my firm decision or nothing threads, and I don’t think they are, as you put it, asking for advice.

Even if a luxury cruise was fun (debatable), retired people might prefer to go in say March, so they can see their actual family for Christmas. It is all so joyless, this constant moaning as though Christmas is nothing but a huge set of chores to get through. It makes more sense to scale back on whatever you're all doing to make it such a faff and just enjoy time together. Go out to a carol service, take the kids to meet Santa, bundle up for a frosty morning walk, decorate the house together, bake biscuits, play silly games... there is so much more to Christmas than washing dishes, it's a shame to lose sight of that.

Well, I think it might have been better to put a little bit more of that information in your OP and first few posts, as how were people supposed to know that she is such a unique character in such unusual circumstances?

Describing her home as ‘too small’ generally implies that someone has less money, rather than that they have actively chosen to live in a tiny flat in South Kensington. Likewise with the ‘single parent by choice’ wording.

Anyway, I hope it all works out to everyone’s satisfaction

God. I think you need to mind your own business.

What is the alternative? Your sister n her own with two little kids? I couldn’t let that happen and I don’t care how cramped we’d be she’d be coming to mine. Camp beds in the lounge and a buffet if we can’t fit round the table. I’m from a very big family. There used to be 15 of us at Christmas. Kids are in a different room from the grown ups - all part of the fun.

Of course.

However, OP does not paint a picture of a sister who is merely " difficult ". She sounds very demanding, rigid, and inconsiderate of other's feelings. Some people are just like that.

So you expect her to be alone for christmas given none of you can help hosting? As her parent I wouldn’t leave her home alone either