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To expect parents in mid '70's to host Christmas with very young children?

568 replies

Birminghamx · 21/11/2024 09:23

I’m one of three children , all of whom have two children. We’re all in late’30’s, early ‘40’s. Two, three years ago my elder brother and I hosted Christmas for our parents in turn, both feeling it was the time for the mantle to be passed to our generation. Our parents are in reasonable health but have some issues and of course have slowed a lot. We knew our parents enjoyed the ease and lack of responsibility when we provided Christmas. My sister is unlike us a single parent and last year invited herself for Christmas with her then 5 months old and just 2 year old and the baby was fractious throughout the 5 day stay. None of us live near one another and a Christmas visit means staying over. Our parents made light of it but I know through my mother’s friends that she was so exhausted after the stay that she cancelled engagements for a couple of days.

Now our sister has invited herself again and my brother and I think this unfair. Our parents are making light of it again and say they need to support her more as she’s single (though by choice). In fairness she can’t host as her flat is too small and our parents book hotels when they visit. Neither my brother or I can host parents and sister but both of us are prepared to invite her for New Year to try and resolve this amicably.

My parents are of sound mind so of course the decision is theirs. However I know they’re affected by an unpleasant breakdown in the wider family (niece/cousin) and are terrified of an estrangement with our (frequently difficult) sister.

Do you think my brother and I would be unreasonable to try and intervene, expressing our views to parents and sister that the proposed arrangements are too demanding on our parents. Our sister has already tried to counter arguments by saying they can buy “easy meals” and eat out (at my parent’s expense), though the reality is this matters little to the strain. Do you think we’re unreasonable in regarding mid ‘70’s as too old for hosting Xmas for several days with very young children?

OP posts:
fromthegecko · 22/11/2024 18:32

Askingforafriendtoday · 22/11/2024 17:45

Because 'different' has a whole range of meanings... OP would have been equally criticised for 'othering' her sister. Instead, she saw that her sister wanted to learn, the boys, it was mostly boys, she said, disrupted that so her sister remonstrated with them. Many kids are frustrated by their learning being interrupted, it doesn't mean they're 'different'; few are brave enough to confront the disrupters, who are usually an annoying minority in my experience. OP is admiring of her sister's drive and ambition throughout.

Bullies will latch onto just about any difference, however trivial, and its not usual to 'explain' bullying because the explanation doesn’t lie in the victim but the bully.

But let's say OP is proud of sister being such an academic go-getter. Good for her. But why then does she think this anecdote is going to go some way to persuading us that sister should be kept away at xmas? I don't get it.

Nettie1964 · 22/11/2024 18:03

Can't you and your DH and your brother and DSIL help? If you have both hosted before you know what needs doing. I am 60 I used to have 24 people for Christmas but I had my Mum and my sister to help. I couldn't do it now with everyone pitching in. It might make your parents unhappy if they feel the are excluding your sister. Your sister might feel sad at being alone. Encourage your sister to help as well.

NonPlayerCharacter · 22/11/2024 18:01

WiddlinDiddlin · 22/11/2024 17:52

Ignore the people wilfully side tracking and trying to make out your sister is the poor downtrodden hard-done-by pauper in a tiny council flat struggling to afford her children and likely to be alone and miserable at Christmas, it is very clear thats not the case.

Unfortunately all you can do is encourage and support your parents in saying 'no' to her when she attempts to invite herself for Christmas. They have a standing invite annually at either yours or your brothers homes. When they feel that hosting your sister is too much they can decline her self-invite and come and stay with you or DB.

You can't do more than that. Telling your sister she is being unreasonable to your parents will result in more family discord and her trying to justify to herself that she is not being unreasonable or rude or unfair, and your parents are likely to suffer the most from that.

Ignore the people wilfully side tracking

OP has clearly spent her life ignoring anyone who suggests her sister isn't responsible for literally everything that goes wrong, including having a fractious baby, being violently bullied at school and not supported with it and, er, living in London and wishing to spend Christmas with her parents.

So don't worry.

NeverDropYourMooncup · 22/11/2024 17:58

Birminghamx · 21/11/2024 09:55

My parents have an invitation to visit either my brother or I for Xmas day, to put their feet up and have a restful Christmas which they very much enjoyed a few years ago. My sister is in an active social group and has options there for Christmas.

So you don't want your ideal John Lewis family Christmas to be contaminated by a poor person?

independentfriend · 22/11/2024 17:55

I think offering to help your parents out to make the visit easier in advance might be the way to go here. Could you visit to help them with toddler proofing/ fitting stair gates / maybe some of the cooking that can be done in advance? Would arranging for a cleaner to visit before/ after your sister help?

WiddlinDiddlin · 22/11/2024 17:52

Ignore the people wilfully side tracking and trying to make out your sister is the poor downtrodden hard-done-by pauper in a tiny council flat struggling to afford her children and likely to be alone and miserable at Christmas, it is very clear thats not the case.

Unfortunately all you can do is encourage and support your parents in saying 'no' to her when she attempts to invite herself for Christmas. They have a standing invite annually at either yours or your brothers homes. When they feel that hosting your sister is too much they can decline her self-invite and come and stay with you or DB.

You can't do more than that. Telling your sister she is being unreasonable to your parents will result in more family discord and her trying to justify to herself that she is not being unreasonable or rude or unfair, and your parents are likely to suffer the most from that.

Askingforafriendtoday · 22/11/2024 17:45

fromthegecko · 22/11/2024 17:09

Why didn't she just say 'she was happy at primary school, but at secondary school she was physically bullied by several boys in her class for being "different"'? (I'm sure OP didn't mean to make it sound as though she brought it on herself.)

Because 'different' has a whole range of meanings... OP would have been equally criticised for 'othering' her sister. Instead, she saw that her sister wanted to learn, the boys, it was mostly boys, she said, disrupted that so her sister remonstrated with them. Many kids are frustrated by their learning being interrupted, it doesn't mean they're 'different'; few are brave enough to confront the disrupters, who are usually an annoying minority in my experience. OP is admiring of her sister's drive and ambition throughout.

OmegaAlpha · 22/11/2024 17:44

I'm a single parent of two children, my parents are in their late 80s and still insist on us going there. They don't like coming to mine, as they are more comfortable at theirs. I can cook (with my very able dad, who enjoys it), and wash up, and they get to see the grandkids. My brothers live in France and Scotland and if my parents didn't see us, they would be alone at Christmas. They would much rather be with their grandchildren. Sometimes I would like to be with friends instead, but that's not an option, and that's fine, as they won't be around for ever, and the more memories my kids have of them, the better. Mid-70s isn't even old!

fromthegecko · 22/11/2024 17:09

Askingforafriendtoday · 22/11/2024 16:02

You really are putting words/thoughts into @Birminghamx post. She says her sister was intolerant of the boys messing around in class, disrupting her learning. She states her parents and the school didn't deal with this, not unusual as we know, therefore her brother who was there at the school had to keep her safe. A loving brother and obvious thing to do, and the OP sounds sympathetic to her sister. Where does this 'golden child' narrative come from? OP has already said she was the lazy, unambitious one, and that she loves her sister. 🤷 So I really hope you're not a counsellor@MrsTerryPratchett

Why didn't she just say 'she was happy at primary school, but at secondary school she was physically bullied by several boys in her class for being "different"'? (I'm sure OP didn't mean to make it sound as though she brought it on herself.)

BeautifulSkiez · 22/11/2024 16:32

MrsSunshine2b · 22/11/2024 16:25

In her own home, which is presumably set up to be safe for 2 small children, where she knows where everything is and can control the environment, is very different. SOME babies sleep a lot. Some babies cry a lot instead.

I think this is such an odd thing to make a comment on.
I suggested an adult daughter could help with the cooking on Christmas Day.
You're saying this is impossible as she has two children with her.

There would be 3 able-bodied adults in the house.
Are you saying it's impossible for those children to be cared for?

MrsSunshine2b · 22/11/2024 16:25

BeautifulSkiez · 22/11/2024 14:44

How does she manage at home on her own to cook?
Babies sleep a lot, they have chairs to lie in, there are two able grandparents to keep an eye on them.

In her own home, which is presumably set up to be safe for 2 small children, where she knows where everything is and can control the environment, is very different. SOME babies sleep a lot. Some babies cry a lot instead.

Thursdaygirl · 22/11/2024 16:11

You seemed to suggest that anyone staying with elderly relatives for more than 48h was unreasonable.
I was pointing out that if your relatives life far / abroad, that's the only option bar not seeing them at all. I wasn't specifically referring to Christmas although it applies too.
Once money has been spent on travel, it's rarely realistic to book a hotel.

@Commonsense22 but this post isn't about a foreign travel situation. And even when everyone is in the UK, I would also suggest that staying with elderly relatives for more than 48hrs is a bit much.

Askingforafriendtoday · 22/11/2024 16:02

MrsTerryPratchett · 22/11/2024 14:58

My sister was so keen on achieving she was totally intolerant of the boys (usually boys) who messed around in class. They reacted and for a term my brother had to see that she was safe leaving the school.

This is a really interesting couple of sentences. Really interesting. Because when a child starts to develop what you think is a PD, what you are looking for is trauma. The first thing identifiable as trauma in your story, is framed as her being intolerant and getting the consequences of that. Not this:

She started to have a really hard time at school. Her classroom was chaotic, and not managed well. She wanted to learn and tried to make her learning environment by tackling the disruptive students. They reacted with bullying so bad that she wasn't safe at school. My parents and the school didn't deal with it and my brother had to stop her being attacked.

I think you need to explore your feelings with a counsellor. Your script is so fixed in your head, and I think in your family, and you are all so fixed in your roles, I don't think you can actually see it. You get something from her being the fuck-up. Work out what that is. Normally it's status and normally that's because there's a paradigm of black sheep/golden child. That's typically formed by parents. You all talking about how terrible your sister is really suggests that you are subconsciously being the 'good one' to avoid the clear disapproval that comes from being the 'bad one'. For example, in this case, everyone talking about you behind your back, saying you're going to be a bad mother, even though you are a good one.

Counselling can pick this apart for you.

You really are putting words/thoughts into @Birminghamx post. She says her sister was intolerant of the boys messing around in class, disrupting her learning. She states her parents and the school didn't deal with this, not unusual as we know, therefore her brother who was there at the school had to keep her safe. A loving brother and obvious thing to do, and the OP sounds sympathetic to her sister. Where does this 'golden child' narrative come from? OP has already said she was the lazy, unambitious one, and that she loves her sister. 🤷 So I really hope you're not a counsellor@MrsTerryPratchett

Commonsense22 · 22/11/2024 15:53

BeautifulSkiez · 22/11/2024 14:46

I don't understand your post @Commonsense22
I've not spent Christmas with my elderly parents for almost 20 years owing to distance and their health.

You seemed to suggest that anyone staying with elderly relatives for more than 48h was unreasonable.
I was pointing out that if your relatives life far / abroad, that's the only option bar not seeing them at all. I wasn't specifically referring to Christmas although it applies too.

Once money has been spent on travel, it's rarely realistic to book a hotel.

Askingforafriendtoday · 22/11/2024 15:49

She is your sister and you should love her unconditional... Why exactly? @sandyhappypeople Just interested, is it the blood is thicker than water thing? And is that necessarily true - apart being from factually correct scientifically?

MrsTerryPratchett · 22/11/2024 15:04

And what @sandyhappypeople says.

I suspect OP can't see it because it's incredibly pernicious and attractive to be the golden child. I know people who died in the role, so strong is the pull. All the time martyring themselves doing care and complaining about the black sheep who has boundaries.

It's actually easier to be the black sheep in the end because at least there's separation.

MrsTerryPratchett · 22/11/2024 14:58

My sister was so keen on achieving she was totally intolerant of the boys (usually boys) who messed around in class. They reacted and for a term my brother had to see that she was safe leaving the school.

This is a really interesting couple of sentences. Really interesting. Because when a child starts to develop what you think is a PD, what you are looking for is trauma. The first thing identifiable as trauma in your story, is framed as her being intolerant and getting the consequences of that. Not this:

She started to have a really hard time at school. Her classroom was chaotic, and not managed well. She wanted to learn and tried to make her learning environment by tackling the disruptive students. They reacted with bullying so bad that she wasn't safe at school. My parents and the school didn't deal with it and my brother had to stop her being attacked.

I think you need to explore your feelings with a counsellor. Your script is so fixed in your head, and I think in your family, and you are all so fixed in your roles, I don't think you can actually see it. You get something from her being the fuck-up. Work out what that is. Normally it's status and normally that's because there's a paradigm of black sheep/golden child. That's typically formed by parents. You all talking about how terrible your sister is really suggests that you are subconsciously being the 'good one' to avoid the clear disapproval that comes from being the 'bad one'. For example, in this case, everyone talking about you behind your back, saying you're going to be a bad mother, even though you are a good one.

Counselling can pick this apart for you.

BeautifulSkiez · 22/11/2024 14:46

Commonsense22 · 22/11/2024 13:59

Glad your parents live close enough for you to have that choice.
Ours live abroad and with travel costs, hotels are not a viable option.
However, we do do all the cooking etc when there for the set of parents who struggle.

I don't understand your post @Commonsense22
I've not spent Christmas with my elderly parents for almost 20 years owing to distance and their health.

BeautifulSkiez · 22/11/2024 14:44

MrsSunshine2b · 22/11/2024 11:54

Easy enough with a partner. Who do you suggest should have been holding her "fractious" 5 mo baby and supervising her 2 yo whilst she was in the kitchen cooking?

How does she manage at home on her own to cook?
Babies sleep a lot, they have chairs to lie in, there are two able grandparents to keep an eye on them.

Shinyandnew1 · 22/11/2024 14:06

dreamer24 · 22/11/2024 13:04

My sister had a wonderful childhood,

Odd thing to say about someone else. Surely the only person who can judge how "wonderful" their childhood was, is the person themselves.

I completely agree!

Would the sister agree? If she says otherwise, then who is right?! Surely only the sister can decide that!

Commonsense22 · 22/11/2024 13:59

BeautifulSkiez · 22/11/2024 09:00

You're getting a hard time here @Birminghamx

Any grown woman who cuts herself off from her parents for 18 months because she didn't like a Boxing Day meal sounds unhinged, frankly.

You said she did that in one of your posts.

I also think that anyone who stays with older parents for 5 days (with 2 young children) needs to give their head a wobble.
It's just too long.

I have adult children and we see each other for just over 48 hours.
By that time, everyone is happy to get back to their own homes even though we all get on well.

IMO your concern is valid but maybe some straight talking is needed on all sides.

In your shoes I'd be talking to my parents and asking if they're happy for 'Mary' (your sister) to stay for 5 days as I noticed they were so tired last year. I'd suggest they laid down some boundaries along the lines of 'We love you being here but at our age 5 days is just too much'.

If 'Mary' is open to the same conversation, have it with her - or your brother could.

And next year consider an Airbnb but be warned they will start getting booked NOW for 2025.

I'd forget about the complicated family history and just focus on the fact that for most families, 5 days with kids in two is too long.

If your sis insists, she needs to roll up her sleeves and cook for your mid- 70s parents. On balance she comes over as being overindulged as a child and has turned into a bit of a spoilt-brat adult.

Glad your parents live close enough for you to have that choice.
Ours live abroad and with travel costs, hotels are not a viable option.
However, we do do all the cooking etc when there for the set of parents who struggle.

dreamer24 · 22/11/2024 13:04

My sister had a wonderful childhood,

Odd thing to say about someone else. Surely the only person who can judge how "wonderful" their childhood was, is the person themselves.

sandyhappypeople · 22/11/2024 12:55

Birminghamx · 22/11/2024 08:39

I hardly" insisted " that my sister had a wonderful childhood but I did say it and imo it's true. I can remember how happy she was, full of ideas and plans. I have far more evidence for saying this than some other posters have for their feedback. People can be both very difficult and estrange themselves from their families from good, caring families.

OP, if you are the golden child (which I suspect you may be), your sisters upbringing will be very different from yours, to say you grew up in the same household and she had a happy childhood doesn't mean an awful lot, when you grow into adolescence and adulthood you start to recognise that pattern for what it is (your family not thinking you are good enough for a start because of X,Y,Z), it is very much a damaging dynamic within a family and can lead to a lot of resentment in later life.

She is your sister and you should love her unconditionally, she is who she is and you shouldn't be trying to police the relationship she has with your parents, as a golden child you see that as your 'job', and your mum 100% encourages that, by confiding in you about your sister (but not speaking to her directly herself about it), and you and your mum secretly trying to diagnose your sister with a personality disorder, because you are so sure there is something wrong with her?? Lots of what you have said here fit the pattern.

You don't seem to see anything wrong in your actions because you firmly believe that everything you do is right and everything she does is wrong.

The fact that she disappears for a while after "absolutely nothing has happened"' in your words is quite telling, I'm sure she will have a very different perspective on those events, yet you are using it as another reason to bash her over the head with it.

SquirrelMadness · 22/11/2024 12:44

The weirdest thing for me is that the parents (unless I've missed it) haven't even said they're unhappy with the current arrangement. They didn't even say they were unhappy with the previous Christmas the sister spent with them. OP seems to have decided they were too tired based on information she received from the parents' friends.

OP you could ask your parents whether they're happy to host your sister for 5 days, maybe they are looking forwards to it. Try asking them what their ideal Christmas would look like rather than trying to work it out for them?

MrsSunshine2b · 22/11/2024 11:54

BeautifulSkiez · 22/11/2024 11:51

When my adult children come with their partners for Christmas they all get into the kitchen and help - in fact I have to shoo them away as there's not room!

Although they won't want the single daughter to be on her own they may like to discuss ahead of the day how long she'll stay. IF they find it tiring.

I agree that 75 is hardly old nowadays.

IMO arriving on the 23rd or even the 24th and leaving on the 27th is long enough, but depends if she's relying on trains or driving.

Easy enough with a partner. Who do you suggest should have been holding her "fractious" 5 mo baby and supervising her 2 yo whilst she was in the kitchen cooking?

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