To ask why you support the farmers, regarding inheritance tax?

@whenemmafallsinlove dentists have very high suicide rates too, many reasons in play.

It seems a pity if we cannot differentiate between genuine family farms of less than say 1000 acres and large newly acquired multi thousand acre estates whose main purpose is financial engineering.
Does anyone know of how other countries manage to keep family businesses intact over several generation?

You can’t bring a dead spouse back to life

No they don’t, as evidenced above 0.5% is return on capital, not earnings

I'm not disputing the claim may be they only make that on paper. But as I say non farming investors are most definately parting with figures way above inflation for farmland. They don't do that to get a return that low. I suspect IHT avoidance does play a part in their reasoning.

And yet, they do. And it keeps us all alive.

return on capital is not the same as earnings/ salary.

We've just been discussing this. If the farm is going to continue to be farmed by those that inherit, no.it should not be taxed. If those that inherit don't farm it for at least 5 years after inheriting they should pay inheritance tax ... just like everybody else.

An average farm has 200 acres and an average acre is worth 10k.
That's 2 million just for the land.
Add a house for 350k
Then there's a tractor, trailer, loadall, lorry, quad, land rover worth in total 150k.
Then there's 1000 sheep worth £100 each.
100 cows worth £1000 each.
3 bulls worth 5k each.
Farm buildings worth a total of 150k.

That's a perfectly average farm that will provide a living for 2 generations. It's already at 3 million and there's probably quite a few things missed off.

Surely this policy is going to have the adverse effect of stopping investment in farms as that will increase the value. Farmers won't want to improve things like housing for animals, slurry storage, the quality of their animals. That will be bad for the environment and for animal welfare.

@ARealitycheck @Bitofashithouse

I haven't made these figures up - I heard them on R4 this morning. Here's a link to the BBC verify page, and here's the quote:

"Other government figures suggest that the average return on capital for farms (the amount of value farmers can extract from things like farmland and machinery by growing crops for example) is only about 0.5%, which is low compared with other businesses".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8rlk0d2vk2o

This is the whole point. Farming is not like any other business. Sitting on a "valuable" farm absolutely does not make you cash rich. Yes you can sell to realise that capital, which is what farmers will end up doing, but this is to the detriment of the whole country. Or at least, those of us who like to eat.

Here is a very level view point in the image, from a wise voice on farming, Guy Singh-Watson

Isnt this just the “poor farmer” narrative though? ONS doesn’t feature farmers in their occupation with the highest suicide stats- that’s tradesmen

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/articles/suicidebyoccupation/england2011to2015#statistical-measures-of-suicide-by-occupation

IHT is a good way of putting the farm out of business and detering farmers to produce. It will allow corporations to come in and decide what is done with the land. Britain would have more food coming from other countries and what regulations they have or don't have e.g. antibiotics in meat then going into the food chain. A European or Saudi/ Chinese corporation would have incentive to buy up land. Local farms are the first block in small country areas to support businesses e.g buying fencing materials, gates, machinery parts, tractors parts, animal feeds (tonnes of it!) , shed building , vets employed for large animal treatment/care....all small British family businesses. It is an all year round business unlike holiday home rental in rural areas which is seasonal. If lots of farms are no longer in production food from abroad is the only alternative. Selling part of an asset for tax bill is the the same as asking a taxi driver's offspring to sell one of the wheels on the vehicle when they inherit the business

The UK imports about 40% of its food. That makes us vulnerable. The world is becoming a more unstable and unpredictable place. Extreme weather events and conflict will threaten food production abroad so domestic food production is increasingly important.

Farming is barely financially viable for many farmers - they are at the mercy of supermarkets. They are asset rich and cash poor. If they have to sell land to pay an inheritance tax bill, then a barely viable farm becomes unviable. If the land is sold, it won’t go to another farmer, it will go to a solar farm, property developer or investor. The nation then produces progressively less of its own food and then when imports are threatened we are basically screwed. We are a few missed meals away from chaos. You can’t ramp up food production over a few weeks, it takes years.

When a family farm is lost, then knowledge, expertise and a deep understanding of the land is lost. You don’t get that back when a crisis hits.

Farmers don’t farm because it makes them rich. They farm because they love the land, because they don’t know anything else and because they have a deep and abiding love for their farm. A farm may be an asset that is worth a few million pounds but most of them will never realise the benefits of that. They will work more hours than anyone else for a smaller wage. They will ruin their bodies and, at times, barely see their families. It’s thankless and gruelling work that breaks your heart when your stock dies for no reason or the weather is against you. The return on investment is tiny. It’s not about the money. It’s about the farm and the food.

Once those farms are lost, they won’t come back. Food security isn’t something we should be gambling with and the relative gains are small when measured against the impact of a food shortage. It is short sighted and dangerous.

I agree with this. And if the biggest polluters in China, India etc and possibly going forwards the USA don’t change, the difference we can make in achieving net zero won’t have much of an impact… (I’m not saying we shouldn’t before I get a pile on, just think about how much other countries commit to this and whether they are serious about change, which I don’t think they are)

To keep the countryside and food production intact.

Because I don’t resent people having things I don’t have.

Here's a question for all those hating on the farmers and their good coats.
If their life is so fecking idyllic and they are so well off - why are the suicude stats for farmers so very bad!

This. No one who could cash in their assets for £4m would work for £20k PA. Load of crap

Support them because of the food supply and how badly it is fucked already.

In that case why the hell is the value of the land so high. In no other business would somebody invest £4m for a £20k return. As I'm sure you realise, there are many more factors in play. Including subsidies for various schemes, tax avoidance, and land prices increasing way beyond inflation. This scheme may help stop part of that by stopping those that buy to avoid IHT like Clarkson and Dyson.

Farms make on average 0.5% income. So a 4m farm makes 20k a year (let's not even get into minimum wage here)

IHT at 20% on even 1m (but it could be 3m if the farmer doesn't have a spouse) comes in at 200k. Spread that over 10 years and it's 20k per year. Which is the total income the farm makes, leaving precisely £0.00 for food and shit.

Schoffel jackets can be bought on sale … don’t go out of fashion, and last a long long time. It’s farmer “fancy” … what do the non-farmers spend on a jacket? Fast fashion? Throw away?

Don’t assume they can sell off a few acres for loads of £££ to property developers
The land is often for “agriculture only” and cannot be developed.

Farmers got to sell to another farmer … often just land, no home, no buildings. Not WORTH an equal % of the whole. Selling 20% of overall value could be 40% or more of the land as the big money is in the house, barns, buildings & equip,