Trainees no longer ready for workplace

I’m in healthcare and we’ve noticed a drop in the standard of students but also in graduates both in terms of abilities and willingness to do the job. Our on -call and weekend rotas have constant gaps because no one wants to take ‘extras’ when in the old days most junior staff would take on these shifts to impress seniors and to earn more to pay for their mortgage etc, this lot say it would ‘negatively impact their mental well-being to work more’ and they would rather not work so the shift goes uncovered. I’ve even had a band 6 senior role tell me after I offered them the position following interview, that they would only take the job if I could write a letter to the transport office guaranteeing them a parking permit. Doesn’t bode well in a profession where you are meant to care for others more than yourself, and you are making demands for benefits or flexible working patterns that none of your colleagues or their bosses will have. It’s not the permit that is the problem, it’s the sense of entitlement that goes with it

@ChannelLightVessel really? I'm always hearing that GCSEs and A-levels have got easier. Not saying you're wrong, I did mine in early 2000s and my kids aren't there yet. But my mum was always telling me how much harder it was in the 70s.

Teaching is absolutely a profession. Why on earth would you say it isn't?

Why do you think that mothers and veterans who are graduates are more poorly equipped to teach than anyone else? Most of the mothers I know are highly educated.

I don't disagree with the general thrust of this thread but actually you did have ADHD, autism, OCD, anxiety and depression, they were just poorly understood, underdiagnosed and probably destroyed many lives as a result.

I am 25 (so early cohort of Gen Z), and I totally agree with you based on my own secondary experience (a private girls school if that makes any difference). Most of my peers never had a PT job, mummy and daddy picked them up from school and made their lunch, they would drop off forgotten homework / PE kit and choose their subjects. Christ one girl in year 7 couldnt even use a knife and fork at school camp, and another couldnt tie her own shoelaces.

My mum was a single parent who worked FT so I was left to fend for myself. I got a job at 15, I caught public transport and if I left my homework at home, then to bad.

I do agree with you that the level students are expected to attain at a younger age has increased from when I was at school and I was the last O level CSE cohort. I think rather than school attainment expectations going up to a level never seen before, it’s actually gone back to pre 1970s lax education levels but without the possibly to pursue a less academic route at a younger age for those, whose skills are in areas other than those taught in school. I think we should be looking at education systems, like France, which is a more similar model to the one, we used to have.

The CSE system was set up so that school education could be universally accessed for the masses. But it was massively flawed and the previous model with technical colleges from I believe the equivalent of year 10 so age 14 onwards gave real life training, not just maths and English, which is all that college offers before age 16. These were in place of the more academic route of school and offered real life work skills and in depth training alongside achieving qualifications in maths and English. Idk if this was O levels tbh despite my father attending one such technicial college for an apprenticeship. And these weren’t just for low academic achievers, these were for people, who like my father wanted to pursue a trade.

I think the reasoning for holding back on streaming kids is that 14 is considered too young. But for many waiting until 16 is disenfranchising a large minority of young people, who have been left to fail. Were they offered the opportunity to engage in something, which interests them in years 10 and 11, which let’s face it, are the most challenging years for all students including the less academically able, perhaps we would have fewer problems.

The more academically able and less academically able to a certain degree would be split from one another and not be a distraction to the other. I think a lot is made of the less academically able distracting the more academically able, which is in part an argument for the grammar school system. However, I think the same can be said the other way around because the less academically able see their peers achieving and don’t see the point in trying to achieve if they will fail. This is a massive disincentive for them.

I appreciate this doesn’t address the way the contract between parents and teachers has broken down or the entitlement of students. But at least a decent proportion of kids would feel less disillusioned and not like a failure at age 16. It must be soul destroying to be written off when not even an adult.

If its a recent thing do you think Covid lockdowns has got a part to play.

It would have affected this age group in a way that another generation couldn't claim to understand..

There is now a lot of entitlement in the existing workplace as to how people who have had a taste of different working think that their preferences should be accommodated

I agree with this. There really isn’t any incentive to become a teacher anymore. This used to be a respected profession. When I was at school, if I had been a pain for my teacher, I’d dread the dreaded call home to my parents. These days, you only have to look at some students in the wrong way and they are calling their own parents to defend them.

Ok - I’m a teacher and I mentor prac students. The university send them for placement. I hear so many horror stories, however, every single one of my praccies have been awesome. I love seeing them develop.

My complaints though are that universities are not teaching practical skills students need to become teachers, such as behaviour management, time management, how to read the curriculum, how to assess students etc. When I’ve asked my prac students what they do learn, they always say the same: that each unit they have to create a lesson plan to critique and then make links to theorists. Yes, it’s great knowing about Piaget and Vygotsky etc, but it seems to me that they’re repeating the same assignments over and over, instead of learning critical skills about teaching. Surely at uni, only one unit would be needed on theorists, maybe one for bloom’s taxonomy, one for creating lesson plans and unit plans, then start extending, rather than repeating.

The whole system needs an overhaul to be honest.

But us teachers have gone towards creating this mess. We aren’t allowed to fail students in the state I’m living in (I’m in Aus). So, a child who’d in the past have an F, will now be given a “N” (not enough evidence obtained to award an overall grade)…even though the reason there’s no evidence is because the student has not engaged in any work for the entire year because they don’t feel like it / their parents said they don’t need to etc.

Oh gosh, don’t get me started on the parents. Or school admin who remove a problem child from class to punish them with lolly pops and iPad time.

It will only get worse before it changes unfortunately…

Teaching over the last twenty years has had very few pay rises.

It's not seen as a good option for graduates any more, indeed if it ever was.

Fewer and fewer people apply for pgces. I'm not involved in teacher training any more but on the grapevine my local Scitt has really really struggled to even fill the places.

The good graduates are not going into teaching. You still get a few who want to contribute back - and my area has quite a few career changers - but the working conditions are so bad that many drop out.

Everyone knows there's no benefit to working hard in teaching. You never earn decent money in it and the kids treat you like shit. That's why so many people are leaving or stepping back from SLT to classroom.

We had one who told one of the highly experienced partners, in front of a huge team of lawyers, that she was wrong about her application of the law on DAY TWO of her traineeship.

The partner was clearly not wrong. But that aside, I was astounded by the actual arrogance of this trainee. Day two!! She could barely switch on her computer!!

I actually think this has been going on for a long time. In the veterinary profession for years there have been students who refused to do farm placements as they disapproved as it went against their vegan principles. Some were not physically strong enough to deal with farm animals. Accused trainer practices of bullying . We had a a girls mum phone up and say but she is allergic to cats and can't be expected to treat them. Objected to doing on call etc.

Recently, I heard of a high class car showroom interviewing for Salespersons.
Applicants turn up with ripped jeans. Others wanted to WFH and couldn't get the idea that a salesperson in a car showroom needed to be present to talk to clients. Another couldn't understand why they may have to work weekends.

I think it’s bad luck on your part and not a bad generation. There were just as many slackers back in my hay day.

personally I’d be offering probation type meetings where you can allocate clear targets, they can raise any issues or areas of interest.

Also speak to the provider and explain you have concern about the quality of the trainee recently and you’d like to interview them before proceeding next time.

When I saw this thread's title I knew it would be about teachers.

Who could be surprised by low-level recruits to a job (I hesitate to call it a profession because it isn't) where shortages have been "promoted" over the years by various governments as suitable to be plugged by a "mums' army" and er, actual army? The effect is that anyone can do it, so yes, some real bottom feeders are bound to be attracted.

The larger picture that this is more widespread is interesting.

I wonder if so many jobs do actually need degrees?

Back in the dark ages, O- and A-levels were enough and you worked your way up and my goodness, you worked. Or you didn't get anywhere. Or anymore money.
And obviously lots of on the job training after starting at the bottom.

But no loans to pay back. A salary from the start. Mixing with all kinds of people and learning lots. Anything seemed possible.

What do you think of the thread where a tradesman left a job at 5.30 on a Friday because it was his turn to do bath and bed and his wife wouldn't be happy if she had to do it alone?

He left two older people without heating or hot water over the weekend?

Many posters thought that was the right thing to do

We have the same in tech support. They want to work 9-5 mon-fri in an internet world that works 24/7, demand free food & drinks on tap in the workplace but want to work from home 100% of the time anyway, cry "mental health" when asked to actually do their job, have trips abroad all paid for inc private boat for sightseeing and tons of freebies on top and complain about the luggage allowance not being enough. 30k starting salary in a job that 10 years ago was a 16k starting salary and complain they don't have enough money to go out every night (while living in a city centre penthouse apartment and running 2 cars at age 25) - no not London or anywhere down south.

Have sick days of up to 3 days regularly because they don't need a dr note and will get full pay for them. Had a guy signed off work with depression for 3 months only to have someone send me a link to an FB page where he was all smiles on a week long pub crawl where he was "working" for another business. I actually give up.

Agree with the wider point, but as someone whose career chances have been significantly adversely affected by ADHD and associated MH problems despite being academically capable and a hard worker, I just want to flag that neurodivergence is often a genuine barrier for people in the workforce. It’s also very difficult to get a diagnosis as an adult in many parts of the country.

I work in an HE institution and have probably sent some (totally unsuitable) graduates to your or similar ITT courses. I’m shocked at which students receive offers for ITT these days. It used to be just our best performing students, but now we’re sending struggling students with 2:2s (and I’m at a post 92) such is the desperation for trainee teachers.

I think the marketization and privatization of education is partly responsible here. We have students who fail several modules, fail resits and are withdrawn from the course as a result. Word has got around that if you complain to the right people (those more concerned with money than academic regulations), you’ll be allowed back on the course so many of them do this, accompanied by claims around mental ill health/ ADHD etc. They’re not students studying for a degree, they’re simply consumers paying for one. No development of any kind of work ethic required.

Different industry here, creative and the exact same issues.

Lying, avoiding work, making the most lame excuses. Attitude that if the boss leaves at 3pm they can as well, even though the boss is off to a meeting. They all want to WFH but do nothing to build trust and awful just awful at actually designing anything.

Among all of that we have a select few who are bloody amazing, talented and hard working but it's becoming so rare our industry is already struggling and now I can't see what's left.

This resonates with me so much. I see all of these behaviours in trainees at my job and it's astounding to me how quickly work ethic and attitudes have changed. I'm talking 10 years or less in age difference and the quality of workers is world's apart. Myself and my peers and seniors would never have dreamt of behaving the way the majority of newer ones do.
I work shift work including nights. It's part of the career and you know what you're signing up for. The new thing seems to be freshly qualified staff suddenly stating they cannot do night shifts due to their mental health, after having done them throughout their training. Have a doctor sign them off and then that's that. Or call in sick for night shifts (and post on social media while enjoying their night out). It's baffling!!

The mental health thing is going to be a huge epidemic in a decade. I can't believe people haven't woken up to this. The most lucrative careers and organisations will be in so called 'wellbeing'...

Ah this is definitely a thing with some Mumsnet posters. You read threads regarding teens that you could easily mistake as being about small primary children. Sixteen-year-olds who are organised, micromanaged and helicopter-parented to a ridiculous degree.

Currently working a contract coordinating University aged people and have found similar: tremendous sense of entitlement and the mental health cards or labels (ADHD, spectrum, OCD, anxiety, depression, etc) get thrown around a lot, especially when they haven't done something or don't want to do something. Some are quite canny with it.

I'm 58. We didn't have any of this stuff and we were taught at school to get on with it.

I think the concept of resilience is alien to a lot of them who are quite emotionally self indulgent.

Honestly, I've got a few fresh grads on my team and I feel the same. And I'm only in my early 30s myself. I've complained to my friends that I feel like I'm turning into a crotchety old person complaining about the younguns but jesus - coming in late 3 days in a row because 'if I get the early train I have to leave the house at X time' (okay, but... that's what time you need to leave to get here on time?), no idea how to do basic things on computers (that's not necessarily their fault, but why are we not teaching basic Office programs in school any more?!), seem to need spoonfeeding absolutely everything from 'maybe give them a call instead of hoping a DM to them on Linkedin works for this urgent issue' to 'have you tried googling it' for a very basic, straightforward question that they've spent an hour not-doing-their-job about. It's baffling, they're really childlike. I don't know if it's partly the pandemic, maybe!?

I do see a PPs point about the new generation of workers setting boundaries we wouldn't have dreamed of - I try and bear that in mind when they take the concept of flexible working to its very flexiest and borderline pisstakey limits, I remember being 21 and starting work and feeling absolutely obliged to take everything on so I always make sure they're never over capacity, can always talk to me, etc etc. I admire them for being very clear about setting boundaries over what they're comfortable with and not letting work take over any more time in their week than it should etc - but when that includes declining very important meetings that have been booked for weeks because they have a bit of a headache and they stroll in late because their gym class ran over but refuse to work a minute past 5, it's a bit much. And if we point this out, we get absolutely blank stares haha. It's been a year since we hired this cohort and they're an alright bunch but it's taken a while to....housetrain them, if you will.