Trainees no longer ready for workplace

I have the highest regard for teaching and am astonished that you've managed to infer otherwise. What on earth do think I was doing for 40+ years? Read my posts upthread.

My disdain is for those governments who have promoted the micromanagement and commodification of the work, as well as the "anyone can do it", the logical conclusion of the half-arsed "mum's army" and "Troops to teach" initiatives.

I also knew you were going to say teachers. One of friends has mentored trainees and NQTs/ECTs for years.

The last time we spoke about it, she said very much the same that the quality of the trainee teachers coming through wasn't the same as it had been previously and for the same reasons.

I suppose there are two explanations.

Younger generations are encouraged to prioritise their MH and not be run down into the ground so they are saying no to things they consider unreasonable.

But, also, when a profession has been undermined and devalued for so long for various reasons, at some point, the people who have other options choose those other options.

I trained 20 years ago and there were a couple of people on my course I wouldn't have wanted around my children but, even then, it was almost impossible to fail your PGCE at least. I do know someone who failed their NQT year but they were dreadful.

We get that with the young porters. They are not with the NHS but a separate company. They are always late, sit around on their phones all day. It boils my piss that two of the NHS porters have illnesses (one has heart problems, one had cancer) and they work.

Yes it is a management problem too and one porter is only now being disciplined. Their management do not come on site very often.

The first thing they are supposed to do is sweep outside. One should start doing that at 7am after he covers the front desk but he waits until the NHS porter comes in later!

Thats a slippery slope to be on, lower the standards at every generation and where do you end up?.

Our trainee accountants are still excellent. The only thing that surprised me was that one of them had got through an accountancy degree but still didn't know how to use excel.

@echt what do you mean teaching doesn’t have the same degree and self regulation for a profession? Your obvious disdain is another reason why excellent teachers have left and schools will be left with “bottom feeders” as you call them.

Well, respectfully, that's nonsense. I work in a large school with 60 other highly-qualified teachers and what we do is very much a profession. Of course there is regulation and here in Ireland, the PME required for secondary teaching is a two year masters on top of a degree. I used to teach in England and it's just as much a profession there. Why do people come on mumsnet spouting obvious BS?

I have been lucky to have lots of incredibly bright, hard working graduates over the last 10 years but… the thing I’ve noticed is a big rise in some of them lacking resilience. I’ve seen lots of tears, hyper perfectionism and fear of taking risks or making mistakes. This side of things is just as counterproductive I think so even among some of the top grads, there are some behaviours emerging in the workplace that aren’t entirely helpful.

@Shoppedatwoolworths, I don't disagree with anything you say about what you do as teacher. How could I, I did all this 40+ years in the UK and Australia.

It's how teaching is regarded and treated, which in the UK is not that of a profession. It's little better In Victoria - I can't speak for the other states and territories.

We have a trainee currently who has not turned up on time ONCE. She has been off sick one day a week since she started. The university are not being helpful.

Last year I had a trainee who refused to submit lesson plans on time, once turned up to the lesson not having read the extract she was meant to be teaching, lessons were utter pandemonium. It took 3 months to fail her.

I have not had a "good" trainee (other than teach first) in about 5 years. And the existing teachers (who are stretched as it is) are the ones expected to deliver the training and pick up the pieces for no extra pay or time allowances.

I think part of the issue is that students in school are not allowed to fail. Look at the number of posts about "my DC was late handing in their coursework/dissertation etc and it's not fair that they are penalised" and because there is SO much pressure on schools to make sure results are as high as possible, there are no consequences. The demands of exams are high so students are often given the answers to learn (very little initiative needed) and regurgitate. And then are adrift in the professional world where this isn't how it works.

We’ll have to agree to disagree then.

Because teaching does not have the degree and kind of self-regulation associated with a profession

I work in ITT having previously taught in secondary. I can tell you we are so desperate for teachers that the entry quals mean we will pretty much accept anyone on to shortage courses. It’s then near impossible to fail them; we hold hands, prop them up, reduce timetables, give extensions etc etc. It is so frustrating because it undermines the profession and leads us into an endless cycle where teaching is seen as an option for anyone; it’s not, you need to be exceptionally hard working, have a certain level of subject knowledge and take a child-centred approach (many trainees forget this!). I so wish we could be more discerning and I also wish we could shift focus to the retention of our excellent teachers, as opposed to recruiting just anyone to fill gaps.

I'm taking on trainees for the first time ever - I'm pouring so much of my time into the basics that I can't progress them.

I work in a professional services field and honestly I never knew it was going to be so difficult otherwise I wouldn't have bothered.

Scared of picking up the phone, reiterating the same basic points over and over and over again. Minimum effort for maximum reward. Turning up late. Going home early. Turning up hungover.

Setting out targets and standards and getting nowhere near them.

I've created full training plans, literally lost weeks of hours of my own work for them having a total lack of self-responsibility in research/reading. There's not a proactive bone in their body.

I thought maybe one or two but ALL of them??

I actually think it's pretty good thata people dont take extra work just to impress people, just how toxic is that to expect to work overtime just so someone looks good.
It should also not be an expectation to care for others more than about yourself!

I changed careers (midlife crisis, I think), from a lawyer, to a uni lecturer while doing a PhD, and then went the whole hog and trained to become a high school teacher.

Teaching certainly is a profession.

Profession - dictionary terms: a paid occupation that involves prolonged training and a formal qualification.

Teachers have a formal qualification and we have to engage in CPD. With teaching, we are hyper aware of not only own behaviour while simultaneously being aware of 25+ young people’s behaviour, triggers, additional needs, differentiation, class dynamics, assessment and reporting requirements, legal responsibilities, admin requirements, pressures from colleagues, curriculum requirements…

As a teacher, I need to be switched on….all….the…time. I have to make decisions - fast - and weigh up pros and cons and understand that every decision I make will impact 25+ students who all have different wants, needs, desires. I have to consider every word I say, as if anything is triggering to a student, or will upset them enough to tell a parent, the consequences are only mine to take the brunt of.

We have to act within very strict and rigid parameters. We have to do work, before we go to work, to come home and do more work.

We have to have understanding of legislation, curriculum, disability acts, inclusion, trauma, behaviour management. We are responsible for everyone….all…the…time. We have to behave with conduct, inside and outside of the workplace. We have to be trained in first aid. We have to adhere to some ridiculous demands from the government, the school principal, the parents, the students, society. We have to protect all our students as if they’re our own children, despite not even being trusted to choose a library book for a student. We have to have in depth knowledge of the curriculum and content we teach, and we need to explain concepts to 25+ students each class, who all have individual learning styles and needs.

We do all that, and so…much…more. In a system that is terribly broken, worldwide. Yet 99% of the population believe teaching isn’t a profession. We are glorified babysitters? What a kick in the guts. The level of dedication that myself and my colleagues dedicate to teaching surpasses the dedication I ever gave to my legal and academic careers, yet ironically, they are deemed a profession, yet come with half the work and half the responsibility. THIS is exactly why teaching is going to the pits. We aren’t respected by society. The knock on is that we aren’t respected by parents, thus this filters down to the students. Hence, we have 18 year olds who go out into further ed or the workforce, who have no respect for anyone or themselves, and their work ethic is poor. This is across pretty much every industry. DH runs a building company, the apprentices he gets are like princesses, who believe the world owes them.

I also work in a law firm and am involved in recruiting trainees and I agree 100%. The applicants who have had part-time jobs have great examples to give when asked the “competency” questions in the interview (tell me about a time you resolved a conflict etc.) and are able to demonstrate that they have the skills to be a good trainee (dealing with difficult colleagues / clients, juggling multiple deadlines, flagging when someone more senior has missed something in a sensitive manner). They tend to perform better in interview than the ones with multiple masters degrees but no real life experience.

Once they start work, you can tell who has had a “grunt work” type job and who hasn’t. We have had (mercifully only a few; most are hardworking and keen) trainees who play on their laptops during training sessions put on for their benefit, don’t bother turning up to mandatory whole team meetings and refuse to speak to anyone on the phone. They are paid over £50k per year!!

I also find it difficult when we are told we have to ignore things like candidates not looking you in the eye when they speak to you during interview as it might be because of a disability. I understand that, but clients expect lawyers to look them in the eye when speaking to them and to have a certain degree of confidence.

I used to be a mentor to trainee teachers 15 years ago and there were loads of unqualified, unsuitable people being sent over (many of whom we sadly had to pass). It's not new, you were lucky to get good ones for so long.
We have always had some amazing people come as well, and I had two brilliant trainees last year for each placement.

Why do you hesitate to call teaching a profession?

What was the counter argument then?

I'm a maths teacher. Exams were certainly easier in 2000 then 1970, but they got much harder again in 2018.

This isn't my experience. As a teacher, I see (most of) our older students working hard to get the grades they need for uni - they're highly motivated, and they know what they need to do to get there.

We have also had some cracking trainees and ECTs recently. If anything, our younger teachers now are less of a pushover than I was 15 years ago!

Hmmmm. I think attitudes like that may be part of the problem.

My first essay on my pgce was whether teaching was a profession

It's very much a debatable subject (otherwise why set an essay on it)

Teaching is absolutely a profession. Why on earth would you say it isn't?

Because teaching does not have the degree and kind of self-regulation associated with a profession.

Why do you think that mothers and veterans who are graduates are more poorly equipped to teach than anyone else? Most of the mothers I know are highly educated

I never said this, nor do I think it. You've popped in the bit about being graduates. It was the spirit of the suggestion by government that there was this pool of expertise just waiting to be parachuted in to fill shortage areas. In the case of the ex-military, to instil better discipline. And no, they weren't going to be subject to the same training as the existing teachers. The ones for primary didn't even have to be graduates. Ditto for ex-military.

By the way, being highly-educated does not mean someone will be a good teacher.