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Trainees no longer ready for workplace

562 replies

Kukcoo · 18/11/2024 21:12

I used to love having trainees allocated to us. They were so enthusiastic, hardworking and a breath of fresh air. It was great to see them develop.

The last few have acted like they're doing us a favour if they turn up by lunchtime because they could have called in sick for nothing. Seriously can't be bothered doing the basics and expect everything to be done for them. Little respect for anyone else and the huge support they're being given. Won't meet a deadline, because this would affect their mental health and basically impinges on their human rights.

They all still expect to qualify and will be passed by the provider unless they do something truly dangerous, but they won't have the real experience or skills to join the workplace and get on with a job.

I'm barely even a different generation, but wouldn't have dreamed of acting the way they do when I was learning and felt I had to prove myself. AIBU to expect standards to be the same?

OP posts:
taxguru · 19/11/2024 10:27

Hateam · 18/11/2024 21:33

This is partly the fault of the teachers who taught them when the were children.

We praise them for doing nothing and don't tell them off for being lazy.

Schools have been too soft on pupils for years and it's producing adults not fit for the workplace.

I'm a teacher with 24 years' experience. I no longer discipline kids like I used to it,'s not worth the nasty email I'll get from their parents.

Soft, fluffy schools produce soft fluffy adults who are poorly equipped for adult life.

Nail on the head. You can't blame universities, because if you look on the Uni threads on here, lecturers and teaching staff at Unis are saying exactly the same thing about students expecting extensive hand holding, accommodations, etc., and they're blaming the schools! Schools really need a massive kick up the arse as far too many kids are being let down. Not blaming teachers as such, but the whole system, and especially the grade inflation over decades.

And yes, far too many kids are going to Uni (thanks Blair, you idiot!) because it's just become the "norm" even for jobs that never used to need a degree. Unis are fighting each other for students, so standards are dropping, as they're having to take in "the best they can get" rather than "the best", so accepting students who really aren't up to standard just for "bums on seats" and the resultant funding!!

We really need to turn back the clock, say 30 years, to where there are lots of options OTHER THAN university, i.e. bring back Polys, return FE colleges to everyone, not just 16-18 year olds, restore adult education, turn back the clock on all the careers (especially public sector) that now require a degree (any degree of course and any grade!), and re-instate alternative entry points and on the job training via evening classes, day release, etc.

We have to accept that education over the past few decades, probably since the scrapping of the grammars in the 70s, has been a failed experiment, and start to look at other countries, such as Germany maybe, who have a completely different approach, especially to secondary years.

When we have half the kids leaving school at 16 without adequate Maths and English skills, and sometimes have kids "passing" a GCSE with a so-called "good pass" despite getting only a third of the marks, or less, you know that something has gone badly wrong.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 19/11/2024 10:26

Maybe they think that even if they graft it still won't get them in a position to buy a house so what's the point ...

Yes, and this is a classic illustration of poverty of expectations

Nobody denies the difficulties and that some areas are unaffordable for those just starting, but for too many this actually means they can't afford what they want in the exact area they prefer, and suggestions they might compromise and maybe start off with second hand stuff is met with horror

But then this is where it brings us if folk are taught from a young age that they're entitled to this and that without putting in the effort. Add the explosion in self diagnosis of ADHD, anxiety and the rest, and a perfect storm results

DownThePubWithStevieNicks · 19/11/2024 10:22

In professions such as teaching, nursing, etc it sounds like a big part of the problem is the university letting them away with murder.

In other sectors (including mine!) there is clearly an issue with recruitment practices. What once worked to get good candidates isn’t any more. Candidates have so many ways to learn the process and say the right things, so methods will have to change, becoming more rigorous and putting candidates on the spot.

I do think we need to find a way to tell young people that they just might not be suitable for x career, no matter how much they want it. If, for reasons of ND they can’t speak to clients on the phone or look them in the eye, law or consulting isn’t for them unfortunately. If for reasons of anxiety, they can’t manage deadlines or meetings, there will be careers that just aren’t for them.

SharpOpalNewt · 19/11/2024 10:22

mumtoababygirl · 19/11/2024 10:19

In my husbands company, he regularly deals with apprentices and work experience (99% male) and he has had multiple cry on the job.

I'm glad people, especially men, can express their emotions.

I remember going into the loos to have a good cry in my 20s when someone spoke sharply to me at work.

mumtoababygirl · 19/11/2024 10:19

In my husbands company, he regularly deals with apprentices and work experience (99% male) and he has had multiple cry on the job.

zingally · 19/11/2024 10:19

I'm a long serving primary school teacher, who has mentored many trainee teachers through the years. Honestly, everything from fantastic to barely scraping a pass.
That being said, it's not my experience that the students aren't trying their best. The ones I have had, the great and the dire have all been trying really bloody hard.

Are you secondary or primary? Maybe it's different in secondary?

newchapternewday · 19/11/2024 10:18

Totally agree - it is unbelievable in the workplace now.

OneGreenOrca · 19/11/2024 10:13

Dontletthebedbugsbite2 · 19/11/2024 08:19

We've noticed this too, not just students/trainees though. I find people just don't put as much effort in anymore, perfectly capable of doing their job at a bare minimum level but won't go the extra mile. I think it's because now it's difficult to let people go from a job, which is great that we have more rights etc, but they know they don't actually have to work hard. It's really disheartening. I work in paediatric nursing & some people don't even try to be nice to the kids, obviously they don't have to as part of their job but it's really poor imo.

The public sector has excellent employee Ts and Cs and contracts which also means it's extremely difficult to get rid of duds as they're so protected.

peppeRomia · 19/11/2024 10:13

In my part of the country housing is relatively cheap so the issue of no prospect of ever buying a house doesn't apply.

Neither is it to do with boundaries. From what I hear from former colleagues (I'm old and long retired) it's lack of subject skills and an unwillingness to improve while fully expecting a promoted post within a very few years. There were always slackers in teaching, but it was not the norm.

This isn't just since Covid either. I taught a shortage subject and new teachers even twenty years ago were showing, in general, poor skills.

Before that we had some fantastic young teachers with good subject knowledge and a lively manner, so it's not a case of everyone after me being inferior!

I partly blame all the pressure on teachers and academics to get students at school and university through with a pass, no matter how inadequate. Spoon-feeding has been very detrimental. And even at teacher training level so much of it is babyish, not professional at all.

I'm sure the best university students are as good as ever, but at the other end people are graduating who frankly wouldn't have years ago.
And teaching for many reasons doesn't appeal to many able students, so takes what it gets. I feel sorry for able people joining teaching as they are likely to be working with mediocre colleagues and leadership teams, and even more sorry for children going through the system being inadequately taught.

SharpOpalNewt · 19/11/2024 10:01

And Gen Alpha are not in the workplace yet so I'm not sure why people are discussing them.

DD2 is about to turn 16 and she's a late Gen Z.

SharpOpalNewt · 19/11/2024 09:59

People were saying this stuff when I was graduating in the late 1990s.

I remember having to learn office etiquette myself and getting things wrong several times. How soon people forget that they did not emerge from the womb as a perfectly formed 45 year old.

fitzwilliamdarcy · 19/11/2024 09:53

Garlicpest · 18/11/2024 22:27

I'm the generation before yours. We didn't fight for equality between the sexes by crying when interviewers asked us about our plans to have children (because we'd never have got a job, so fight lost before it started). We got equal pay laws and maternity rights through hard-nosed political campaigning and co-ordinated strikes.

This takes application, strategy, dedication, co-operation and it can only stand a chance of success if you've already proved your value to employers. Otherwise, they'd have quite reasonably said "See? We told you women aren't cut out for the workplace. They simply can't deliver, bless them!"

I'm sure Gen Alpha have some very good points to make about work/life balance and futile rigidity. Few of them seem to be showing much promise of the ability to make these points effectively, starting with the obvious need to demonstrate that business can be satisfactorily carried out while working flexibly. In fact, their parents are the generation proving that.

Simply demanding the flexibility and pay cheque, without delivering the work, has a giant flaw as an argument. And I fail to see how people who can't handle being told "no" could hope to negotiate radical changes.

As it happens, I'm in favour of a proper Universal Basic Income - which sounds like it would suit these kids, but it doesn't look like they're going to develop the skills to sort it out! And even if their mums & dads manage to pull it off, they'll probably still be whining that they don't get paid enough for doing nothing ... 🙄

I agree.

And what I am seeing is a lot of "you're really lucky to have XYZ" from trainees. There seems to be little comprehension - even when it's pointed out - that to the extent that any benefits exist in the workplace, these were fought for either systemically by groups, or individually by someone who proved their worth and earned it.

I don't think the attitude that everything that's good just fell out of the sky with no effort required from anyone is going to help this generation work together and fight for change.

ChampagneLassie · 19/11/2024 09:50

Wahoobafoo · 18/11/2024 22:13

Yes I have noticed this change too, I have managed graduates for years (well educated types including oxbridge graduates). The shift has been fairly sudden and palpable over the last 6-7 years I’d say (so pre-Covid).

I’d say it’s multi-faceted.

Gen Z are far less likely to have had an unskilled job as a young teen where you learn so many life skills, confidence and self discipline/motivation. My friends had paper rounds, worked for peanuts in the local chemist/bakery/ pub doing grunt work. Fewer kids have these jobs now- they can actually be harder to come by and parents less likely to encourage them to work/ be independent. I’ve noticed the difference in CVs not having these types of jobs listed.

Declining use of the telephone and conversations in the community. You develop a lot of confidence and communication skills answering the phone and speaking to people out and about. I remember holding conversations with aunty who called to speak to my mum and answered the phone in low paid jobs as a teen. Now people just text/ WhatsApp. People spoke to each other more often when mobile phones didn’t exist, families in pubs/ on trains whatever. Now everyone is glued to phone. Social and communication skills like these are super important for developing self awareness/ confidence/ independence etc

Kids are very aware how much worse their standard of living will be compared to their parents and it’s demoralising. A teacher actually told my nephew he’d never get a mortgage or own a house (this was a few years ago now). I thought that was awful - basically stamped out his aspirations!

Permissive parenting/ overly protective parenting that has backfired because kids are not developing the independence or self discipline skills they need. I’m always surprised by how invested parents are on the Oxbridge threads on here. It’s weird and stifling to be so involved- young people going to university need freedom to grow. These parents are not doing them any favours.

I actually feel sorry for young people today. They have not been given the rich opportunities to grow and develop that we were, too many stay in their comfort zone. It is our generation (X and millennials) that have done this to them, thinking we were being kind and supportive, but really we have set them up to fail. Hopefully they will learn and grow but it could be more painful than it needed to be.

My kids are still young and I’ve been very mindful about these challenges and am trying to get them out of their comfort zone as much as possible but it is difficult in today’s society, where the opportunities are fewer.

Edited

I think you’ve hit nail on head. I think over parenting in particular at all ages. I’m raising my children pushing them to be independent and do things as soon as they’re able. Eg my 2.5 can help unload dishwasher / carry things. Yet SIL teens seemed clueless to try

YYURYYUCICYYUR4ME · 19/11/2024 09:48

I had this situation when placing trainee teachers into an industry placement and you'd not believe the behaviour and attitude, all displayed to a very well known blue chip company. The company refused to take any other trainees from the well respected SE university and said they got better attitudes and performace from KS4 work experience students!!

ChaoticCrumble · 19/11/2024 09:47

Interestingly I am just reading a science fiction book about a world where life has been made too easy for the inhabitants. Food is easy to get and there are loads of resources. As a result, they don't really need to think. I could go into more detail but essentially each generation is getting less intelligent, because they don't need to strive for anything.

Not exactly the same, but I drew a connection when I read this thread!

MounjaroUser · 19/11/2024 09:46

I remember hearing an interview with Deborah Meaden on the radio where she said she gets CVs from graduates who want a managerial role but haven't actually ever had a job. Many were in their mid-twenties because they couldn't find that kind of job and so did nothing while they waited. She was saying she would far rather employ someone who'd worked in McDonalds rather than someone who'd never had a job. She was laughing at the idea of someone coming in to manage others when they hadn't worked at all - the entitlement is shocking.

RosesAndHellebores · 19/11/2024 09:45

Sadly it's more systemic than meets the eye. Our dc are 26 and almost 30.

At primary the head closed the school at sight of a snowflake, banned use of the school field when it was windy in case a branch fell on a child. Booked no argument from parents about the idiocy. My children had teachers who couldn't spell or understand basic number work in the 00's. Standards were eyewateringly low and this was at a top of the league tables school. Behaviour was OK though.

DS was pulled out aged 8. DD did one year at a holy grail secondary where there were two behaviour policies: one for the badly behaved which gave terrific licence; one for the well behaved which were afforded no licence. Notwithstanding some execrable teaching and failure to act on behavioural issues. We pulled dd out at the end of Y7.

The primary head became a super head, the secondary head took the governors 7 years to remove.

The expectations and work ethic, together with quality of teaching in the independent sector were much better. My dc were both work ready.

ElaborateCushion · 19/11/2024 09:44

We've had two work experience students this year. One was 17 and in his first year of A levels, the other 21 and in her last year of uni.

I've told the 17 year old to get in touch with us if he's interested in an apprenticeship when he finishes his A-levels and the Uni student is now working with us on a part time basis around her lectures.

So, @Kukcoo , in my experience it's definitely not all trainees.

That said, we have a swathe of staff in their late 20's that seem to thing they're doing us a massive favour just by turning up. One has used his 20 days annual leave AND his 20 days paid sick leave then strolls in 10 mins late every day. When we had a word with him about the lateness, he said "well you know I have to take public transport". The train literally comes every 6 minutes at the longest interval. It drives me mad!

Oganesson118 · 19/11/2024 09:40

I've heard this about grads and apprentices in our place (large financial services firm) so not just the trainee teachers. There are grads who won't come into the office because they'd "rather work remotely and don't see the point of the commute" even when people are coming in to help them settle, and we had one APPRENTICE who said they didn't expect to have to study and do assessments to qualify!

TheaBrandt · 19/11/2024 09:38

I agree about the Saturday job. Dd1 and her mates have all worked and are noticeably more sensible and practical than dd2s friends who are from very privileged families and never have. Several aren’t allowed to
usr public transport! At 15! So I can well believe these anecdotes

Soursop · 19/11/2024 09:33

Imfreetofeelgood · 18/11/2024 21:57

Sadly, I've had the same experiences with student nurses. It's a worrying trend in many areas.

Yes me too, we've had a batch of graduate masters mental health nursing students and out of five only one was at the level expected. Four needed loads of extra support and one we had to fail. Just not at the standard expected at all. We fed it back to the university, not sure what they will do if anything

PennyCrayon1 · 19/11/2024 09:28

crochetmonkey74 · 19/11/2024 09:26

I agree about the behaviour making wet adults- I have had a parent come on to school site to 'get me' over 1 demerit given to her daughter in line with school policy about being late to lesson

1 demerit - given for missed homework etc, a very small sanction. This was a 'nice' supportive middle class parent- who started with 'can you explain why I have a sobbing 12 year old in my car who was so upset she couldn't go to netball'
There was not one bit of that woman who questioned her child's resilience over 1 demerit- it was immediately my fault and it should be removed

I have a “friend” who parents like this. She is absolutely unbearable.

crochetmonkey74 · 19/11/2024 09:26

I agree about the behaviour making wet adults- I have had a parent come on to school site to 'get me' over 1 demerit given to her daughter in line with school policy about being late to lesson

1 demerit - given for missed homework etc, a very small sanction. This was a 'nice' supportive middle class parent- who started with 'can you explain why I have a sobbing 12 year old in my car who was so upset she couldn't go to netball'
There was not one bit of that woman who questioned her child's resilience over 1 demerit- it was immediately my fault and it should be removed

fitzwilliamdarcy · 19/11/2024 09:25

I'm in a profession and it's the same. They don't write in a coherent way, they can't read instructions in an email so everything has to be in a meeting where you walk through the email with them, they often don't do what's asked even with an email AND a meeting about the email, and they don't understand office or email etiquette. If you ask them to do a meeting note, it's clear they've not paid attention to any of it as the note is either incomplete, totally inaccurate, or both. They also commonly refuse to do trainee-level tasks because they're "boring" or they only want to do the things that "really inspire them".

It's a change that I've noticed in the past 5 years and this year is the worst so far. The above were all tasks that trainees were doing brilliantly before, say, 2019. I'm a good mentor and have mentored trainees for 15 years, but I'm struggling more and more to know what to do with them. I mentioned it informally to a friend on the interview panel and she said that the ones we don't hire are even worse.

I know people are going to say that it's COVID but I find it difficult to believe that all of these trainees were great students before 2020 and now can't write coherently, understand instructions or behave appropriately in an office.

bifurCAT · 19/11/2024 09:24

This hurts the 'actual' people with mental illnesses. Everyone and their uncle has 'something' these days, and will over-exaggerate the slightest thing to enable them to fit into some sort of box. It's a get out if jail free card. A classic one is OCD. Everyone with a preference for some sort of organisation says they have OCD.
It just enables laziness. "I can't work because #mentalhealth." I feel bad for those with real mental illnesses as it diminishes their plight.