Trainees no longer ready for workplace

I'd argue otherwise. I think students who actually stuck it out through covid DO demonstrate resilience, self motivation, etc., especially at Unis where there were no "in person" lectures or seminars for a year or more, Uni buildings were locked (inc library), and they barely left their rooms. The ones who started Uni in 2020 and stuck it out without giving up or taking a year out, really ARE the ones with resilience etc. It was so easy for them to either not go in the first place and take a year out, or to just give up, but most saw it through, in adversity.

I know you're primarily meaning social skills, but that's the least of the problems for a lot of youngsters today. For a lot of "quieter" students, the lock downs, lack of "freshers week" pub crawls and parties, etc., was actually good for them as they weren't pressurised into doing things they didn't want to do, and weren't looking on the side lines at everyone else having fun if they hadn't "found their tribe". I'm still on a few Facebook Uni parent groups and lots of parents are saying their children are still struggling at Uni due to not "fitting in" with the party and drinking culture - ironically those kinds of students actually found the covid years better as there wasn't the same culture. Such a shame that in these supposedly enlightened times, the drinking and partying culture still dominates the first few weeks/months of Uni life!

This is wonderful!

I think the firm belief, as a result of poor reporting and interpretation of a single study, that brains are developing until they are 25, doesn't help.

Brains develop through stimulus and feedback, so if someone is in fact to be a functioning adult by their mid-twenties, they need to start on that pathway years before. Additional responsibility, part-time work, independence, the expectation of being able to communicate politely and effectively... this is how you learn.

You now have parents that have decided that this is far too much to expect of a young adult whose brain isn't, to use a phrase I literally saw someone on here using yesterday, "fully cooked". So they place no expectations on them and mollycoddle them and never let them learn, make the mistakes and take the knocks necessary to learn and grow up.

Of course they're going to be bratty, overgrown children and teens well into their twenties. They were literally denied the brain development to have the appropriate level of maturity.

Oh yeah, I had a Saturday job in a pub and had office experience- my mum managed to wangle me a few weeks where she was working here and there. But a London law firm was quite something else.

I think covid has had an impact here - it's left a bunch of kids seriously lacking in social skills. Trainees are always a bit of a pain to work with, though. You always get a few who just don't take it seriously at all.

Very good point. I think this is where Saturday/holiday jobs help. I remember one of the full-timers taking me to one side when I was 16 and gently having a few words. I got the message! We both worked on the record counter when that was a thing and I wanted to choose the music. She basically explained that she outranked me and got to choose. She did play some stuff I liked :)

@Ineedanewsofa Good grief, that's poor on the part of the college!
We get our UG students to practice CVs as an assignment, and we offer interview practice, and presentation practice (some do, to be fair, avoid all such things, but that's their problem really).

I'm a lecturer and I have some absolutely amazing students and some who need their hands held.
I had one recently who was good academically but wouldn't work with me once she discovered I am gender critical (as my colleague put it, is she going to do this in a real job?)
One that my colleague who taught them for UG said "Lucky old you!" when they found out I had this student for an MSc class.
One that wanted us to move the summer exams for them so they could take a summer job abroad (no, sorry, mate).

Refuse to do the printing and tell them you are there to observe. Let them deal with the consequences of not having the documents, worksheets etc. If that means the kids play up because of their lack of planning let them deal with the behaviour management.
Do not sign off on the planning competencies.
Re the meeting do not sign off on this either.
Make these targets for their next observation.

Our L3 apprentice is brilliant! smart, proactive, hardworking and, after an initial couple of weeks of seeming absolutely terrified, a good communicator.
However, we had over 150 applicants for the role, offered 5 interviews, 3 actually showed up and of the 3 he was the only one who showed up on time, properly dressed, prepared and who was able to maintain a small amount of eye contact (very important for an in person, customer facing role).
When we asked about the college he told us they hadn’t helped at all with any type of interview prep and the apprentice programme was being administered by apprentices!

You dont have to be mean to them, Im very casual and easy going but I tell them once things like lateness are not acceptable because once they are qualified who will be doing their work if they come in late everyday. I point out the dress and hair code and expect this to be consistent from day 1. If I dont teach them who will?

I'm quite senior in my job but fortunately a specialist who doesn't have to manage anyone. I don't particularly want to manage people of any age.

Recently my job has involved a bit of HR work (a one off, thank God) and two female employees close to retirement age, egged on by a senior male manager aged 50, have been bullying an employee in her 30s (who is lovely and competent) as if they are still in the school playground.

When I have had to manage recent graduates in the past I've found them scarily high achieving, sensible and brilliant at their job! Much better than I was at their age.

@Another2Cats

He says that they are all very keen to learn and do well. But the thing is, getting one of these apprenticeships is a very competitive process. The company get to pick from young people who are really motivated to be there.

Yes, I think with the "in demand" apprenticeship schemes, only the most highly motivated students get through the application process. They've usually got multiple hoops to jump through just to get to the final selection process, so the "stragglers" will have been weeded out (or weeded themselves out) sooner in the process. That just leaves the most highly motivated and engaged ones to actually get to the workplace.

That's how it is in accountancy, especially the big firms. It's usually a multi stage application process, with online aptitude tests, online pre-recorded interviews, etc. all before a final real life interview. Anyone who doesn't put in 110% won't get through all the stages and will never get to the workplace.

My son went through that for his graduate apprenticeship job in one of the UK largest insurance firms. Over 1,000 applicants for around a dozen positions and the whole application process took three months and had something like 6 different stages of tests, interviews, etc. He tells me his "peers" who started on the scheme at the same time are all highly motivated, resilient, self reliant etc. Some of the online aptitude tests were to test those skills, i.e. "impossible" problems or online games where you can't get it right (you only know that after you've tried several times), so the system is measuring how many times you try, how long you spend before giving up, etc!!

I think that's the difference when it comes to the "bums on seats" job placements such as teaching and maybe even nurses/doctors, where the Uni "allocates" students to placements or maybe where there isn't a stringent application process.

This is interesting - encouraging even - and I'm wondering if it's a recent thing, suggesting that some are having the sense to push back on the nonsense?

Let's face it somebody has to, otherwise the downward spiral continues, and while it'll bring shrieks of "unfair!!" it's as well to remember that while decent employees deserve a good salary, employers are ultimately the ones doing the paying

Maybe you'll think differently when you have to manage them and write off your own leisure time because you're doing their work as well as your own!!

While I think there are factors specific to Gen Z which have made them less equipped for the traditional workplace than previous generations in some ways, I do agree that there’s a hefty dose of this going on as well. It’s easy to forget how difficult that stage of life can be when you’re older and relatively sorted. The human brain doesn’t fully develop until around age 26 — it’s developmentally normal to be a bit chaotic in your early 20s compared to your 40s (though obvs that doesn’t excuse some of the more extreme behaviour PPs have described here!)

I find this thread absolute nonsense. It's just more youth bashing, that went on in the time of Socrates let alone in the 1990s when I was young and on the receiving end of the nonsense. I resolved to never be such an old fart and think my generation are superior when I'm older and I'm sticking with it.

I dont allow my NHS students to do this OP. I fail them if they turn up late without permission and wont do the job properly. No way Im letting poor students loose on vulnerable patients. I make this clear from day one. But then Im in my 60s and old school.

I've always thought this!
It'll be a brave employer/careers adviser who will say this though!!

Likewise, my DH works for a manufacturing company and last year they took on 11 level three engineering technician apprentices. They're taking on more this year but I don't know the numbers off the top of my head.

Level three is sort of A level standard and aimed at people straight out of school.

He says that they are all very keen to learn and do well. But the thing is, getting one of these apprenticeships is a very competitive process. The company get to pick from young people who are really motivated to be there.

I'm guessing it's not so much the same situation with trainee primary teachers?

I've been teaching 25 years . This year we have 3 seperate students in year 7 who don't like cleaning themselves up after going to the toilet. Parents requested they should go home in the instance this was needed. Not neuro diverse or SEND students. Again, solvent middle class parents who because the kid 'didn't like doing it' have done it for them. Until they get to secondary school. This is mental.

On recruitment, my friend works for a public sector body and there is a guaranteed interview scheme for people with disabilities. Which is definitely as a policy a positive thing.

However, in their last round of graduate recruitment so many applicants had ticked the disability box that they only had the time to interview all of them. Almost all of the ones who didn’t, did not get an interview.

When the candidates arrived for interview, there was in the vast majority of cases no visible disability - which obviously does not mean that it doesn’t exist - but you can’t help but wonder how many of them are self-diagnosing as disabled? My friend said they weren’t allowed to ask about it or anything.

if this is the case, that really is damaging to people with actual and serious disabilities.

Agree with the person who thought the pre 1992 system was better.

OP, could the school refuse to take anyone on placements from the particular university?

There’s definitely something in this. DSS is a lovely young man, but had no get up and was very passive about life happening to him rather than something he could grab with both hands. DH and I agree that DSS has had everything handed to him in a plate, he’s never had a Saturday job to earn spends like we had to do, as his parents are comparatively much better off than our parents were. When he stayed with us we tried to encourage him to develop confidence and to be more independent. But all he wanted was a constant supply of snacks and access to the internet, that was the extent of his ambition.

He’s now started his adult work career and the difference in him is noticeable in terms of being proactive. He’s still a bit passive in letting his mum do stuff for him, but I guess that’s all teenage boys!

My husband works in the IT industry and says similar. Graduates expect to walk into a high paying, high ranking job, that's exciting, and enables them to bypass the basics. It comes as a shock, when they're asked to do something simple, but probably not particularly exciting as it's deemed beneath them. Most graduate and go into the industry without any actual experience of physically doing the job. As my husband says, graduate or not, you have to start at the bottom and get experience with the fundamentals of the job.