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To highlight this case of voyeurism in what appears to have been a unisex toilet on private premises?

329 replies

BadSkiingMum · 18/11/2024 18:04

I came across this case of a voyeur who placed phone cameras under the sink in a toilet. Note that this did not even make BBC news - this is on a local London website.

Women secretly recorded by south east London voyeur | This Is Local London

This was a toilet in a hairdresser, so not open to passers by and with the need to make a booking to enter the premises. So it would seem to be a low-risk environment. But unfortunately this did not prevent an employee from committing a crime. While the article is not clear that the toilet was unisex, presumably the offender was able to enter the toilet and place the phones inside because he was using it himself and was therefore unlikely to be challenged.

In my opinion this case suggests that unisex toilets, even those which are in what we could consider to be a relatively 'safe' environment, present greater risk than toilets separated by sex.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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ArabellaScott · 19/11/2024 17:42

BadSkiingMum · 18/11/2024 20:30

What always amazes me is how diligent and thorough these digital perverts are: multiple phones, special equipment, adapted boots, multiple visits to locations…

You could open a browser right now and see pictures of a woman’s body, yet these voyeurs will go to any lengths and engage in high level espionage to get fresh content that is for their eyes only.

Why do they do it?

Because they are paraphiliacs who get off on the non-consent.

SleeplessInWherever · 19/11/2024 17:29

Why has this actually become a trans debate?

From what I can see, a male - who identified as one, went into a unisex bathroom that already existed due to business size etc. He wasn’t trans, and the toilet hasn’t recently converted into being “gender neutral,” “unisex” or shared - it always had been.

Does anyone honestly think if it’d been a female only toilet it would have stopped him? And what does it even have to do with trans people?

Helleofabore · 19/11/2024 17:21

PaganPollyanna · 19/11/2024 14:56

This claim. I asked previously if you had any evidence for this but you didn't reply.

The media aren't well known for presenting facts backed up by data on emotive issues.

Edited

Oh. I do apologise.

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html

This one is about changing rooms, but I would ask anyone who chooses to dismiss this article what they would consider the difference between toilets and changing rooms are in their mind?

Then we have had at least one report of a sexual assault in a 'gender neutral' toilet in a school in the UK.

https://unherd.com/newsroom/girls-assaulted-in-gender-neutral-toilets-as-predicted/

Risk is not just the risk of sexual assault though. There are other risks of harm to female people - women and girls - with the increased provision of unisex / mixed sex toilets.

Just one example is that there has been reported to be more girls who are putting their health and learning at risk to avoid using unisex toilets. I have heard this from teenaged girls directly themselves but it does get picked up by media sources too.

https://archive.ph/2GPVR

https://archive.ph/P19EF

inews.co.uk/news/kemi-badenoch-uti-single-sex-toilets-claim-fact-check-3038768?srsltid=AfmBOooDydOqvy8dL9S3JFMFjLBD81-hh2g-3LJ_5wEOEvAto-m7-7P_

Students even have staged protests in the UK about these issues and readers may remember this.

https://metro.co.uk/2023/02/28/more-schoolchildren-stage-tiktok-protests-over-toilet-rules-18364986/

Regarding full floor to ceiling doors, we have had posters on MN FWR describe their harrowing ordeal of being pushed into these cubicles in clubs and attacked. I am not going to go find these posts though. But here are a couple of examples of rapes and assaults occurring in fully enclosed cubicles.

Trains have lockable full floor to ceiling doors too.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clyv9vz30l5o

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/predator-guilty-of-rape-after-attacking-teenager-he-cornered-on-london-train-b1156183.html

If we take on board poster's comments about floor to ceiling toilets and the fact that people cannot see whether a female person is being attacked, how will people be able to intervene? At least if we can keep as many spaces as being single sex as possible, we give women the choice of facilities.

There is no doubt that there is a degree of risk for using public toilets, either single sex or unisex.

The issue is how many additional female people - girls or women - are accepted to be harmed either physically or through self exclusion with the decreased provision of single sex toilets?

Unisex changing rooms put women at danger of sexual assault, data reveals

The vast majority of reported sexual assaults at public swimming pools in the UK take place in unisex changing rooms, new statistics reveal.

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html

DadJoke · 19/11/2024 16:59

Voyeurs are like vampires - if there is a label on the door which suggests they aren't allowed to enter, they are not able to.

CocoapuffPuff · 19/11/2024 16:45

The one thing that always strikes me about incidents like this is how little technology actually benefits women.
We feel safe cos we've got our mobile phone on us, yet find there's another phone, belonging to a complete stranger, pointed at our crotch as we change a tampon.

It shouldn't really come as a surprise, I guess, as most techy people are males, after all.

I'd like a techy product that fries the perp's testicles with 900 volts when used inappropriately. A condition of being allowed a phone is the embedding of a chip to do just that.

That'd stop it. For all but a few masochists.....

AuntieJoyce · 19/11/2024 16:45

songaboutjam · 19/11/2024 14:48

and insufficient space at the top and the bottom of those doors so that someone can’t stand on the toilet seat in the next cubicle and look over at you to get their rocks off.

But they're still dangerous if someone collapses. The gap at the bottom of the door makes someone having a medical emergency immediately visible in a way a floor-to-ceiling cubicle does not.

Single-sex toilets with traditional cubicles aren't failsafe, but they are still, on balance, safer. This is because they reduce (but not eliminate - sadly it's very difficult to keep them out completely) the risk of perverts, while making the cubicles safer for people with medical emergencies.

I am sorry that you were perved on in the ladies' toilets. I can only imagine how unsafe that must have made your workplace feel, especially as a junior colleague in a first job.

You do raise a very valid point. Low-footfall and isolated toilets can certainly be unsafe, even if well designed. I think that's something that we often overlook in this discussion - in terms of women's safety, the amount of traffic in the toilets is often just as important as the way the toilets are set up.

Thank you for this. Yes it was certainly let’s say character building. I would still support women’s toilets as the ideal, but I did want to make the point that they are not a panacea. And I definitely do think some pervy men like the very idea of a woman’s toilet rather than a unisex one.

ApriCat · 19/11/2024 16:37

Yup. I was at a theatre the other night (in a v woke suburb) where they'd done the lazy thing of just converted two sets of ordinary previously single-sex cubicles into "gender neutral." No privacy.

And usually there's pee on the seat and on the floor. Men possibly don't notice this in their own loos as they don't have to sit in it.

YellowAsteroid · 19/11/2024 16:21

Chersfrozenface · 19/11/2024 12:05

Every unisex toilet I've ever been in has been a room with a toilet, sink and lockable door. I had the whole room to myself and it really wasn't an issue.

Every unisex toilet I've been in has had cubicles with just a toilet, and then a row of sinks and driers outside them in the common space.

Yup. I was at a theatre the other night (in a v woke suburb) where they'd done the lazy thing of just converted two sets of ordinary previously single-sex cubicles into "gender neutral." No privacy.

They are NOT "gender neutral." They are mixed sex.

I had to ask at the box office where the Ladies lavatories were. The first thing the person told me was "Oh the gender neutral ones are over there" (points to easily accessible loos on the ground floor off the foyer). "No, I want the single sex ones" - she gave me the wrong directions & they were 2 floors up.

Gah!

SleeplessInWherever · 19/11/2024 16:18

lifeturnsonadime · 19/11/2024 15:49

Yes but what about the drive towards public toilets elsewhere being made unisex?

Are you happy about that?

Not “happy,” as such - I’m as unbothered as I am about the ones in Costa.

There are so many spaces where they already are, I’m not sure what the difference is.

BadSkiingMum · 19/11/2024 16:17

I still feel that there are inherent risks, as per my OP, but also wonder if there might be a case for devising a single sex toilet room of a seamless design that effectively prevents anything from being placed or left behind? Or perhaps even detected?

I know cameras can be tiny, but surely there is something that can be developed...

OP posts:
AuxArmesCitoyens · 19/11/2024 15:57

PaganPollyanna · 19/11/2024 14:56

This claim. I asked previously if you had any evidence for this but you didn't reply.

The media aren't well known for presenting facts backed up by data on emotive issues.

Edited

I posted evidence that it is a major issue in developing countries like India. Not good enough? There is also data pertaining to sexual assaults in single-sex changing facilities in the uk which I am sure someone will provide.

lifeturnsonadime · 19/11/2024 15:49

SleeplessInWherever · 19/11/2024 15:37

I’m one of them, if that helps.

What’s in it for me is what there’s a toilet there, and I need one. Nothing more, nothing less.

My work toilets, coffee shops, garages - all always been unisex. We can’t boycott them all.

Yes but what about the drive towards public toilets elsewhere being made unisex?

Are you happy about that?

WallaceinAnderland · 19/11/2024 15:40

I worked for the NHS in a small clinic in children's care. We had one unisex toilet. A delivery man asked to use it and was in there quite a while. After he left I searched it high and low for any sign of hidden cameras.

It's a shame we have to be so suspicious but the modern inclination to ignore safeguarding for women and children has made predatory men so bold now.

When you give a man a gold medal for punching a woman in the face on international television it's in plain sight isn't it.

SleeplessInWherever · 19/11/2024 15:37

PaganPollyanna · 19/11/2024 15:02

So you've assigned a motive to me with no basis then.

This is nothing to do with trans women.

This was a single toilet/sink room in a small business space that is used by men and women at separate times, which is how unisex toilets are set up the majority of the time.

Are you ignoring all the women who have been saying it's not an issue to them either?

I’m one of them, if that helps.

What’s in it for me is what there’s a toilet there, and I need one. Nothing more, nothing less.

My work toilets, coffee shops, garages - all always been unisex. We can’t boycott them all.

lifeturnsonadime · 19/11/2024 15:15

PaganPollyanna · 19/11/2024 15:02

So you've assigned a motive to me with no basis then.

This is nothing to do with trans women.

This was a single toilet/sink room in a small business space that is used by men and women at separate times, which is how unisex toilets are set up the majority of the time.

Are you ignoring all the women who have been saying it's not an issue to them either?

I haven't assigned anything to anyone Im simply asking a question which, for reasons that are yours alone, you are refusing to answer.

What benefit does this bathroom arrangements give to women in public spaces?

Most women on this thread do see an issue with it, you are ignoring those women and putting the wishes of males first because if there is no benefit to women then why else are public toilets up and down the country being made either gender neutral or unisex.

But whatever, you're not going to have a straight conversation with any of us are you?

I can come to my own conclusions about why that is the case.

PaganPollyanna · 19/11/2024 15:02

lifeturnsonadime · 19/11/2024 14:42

@PaganPollyanna

Well the trend towards 'gender neutral' or unisex toilets in public places is to appease the tiny minority of males who identify as trans women.

So given that you seem to be ignoring the voices of women who are saying that we don't want these facilities for the numerous reasons stated upthread very eloquently by Helle and other posters by saying that you don't mind them, I wonder whether you have an agenda to appease this tiny minority or whether alternatively you are just acting on the normal female socialisation of lowering boundaries because that's what men want?

I just can't see what's 'in it' for a woman? How does it benefit you so much that you are prepared to ignore the concerns of other women and who gains from that?

Edited

So you've assigned a motive to me with no basis then.

This is nothing to do with trans women.

This was a single toilet/sink room in a small business space that is used by men and women at separate times, which is how unisex toilets are set up the majority of the time.

Are you ignoring all the women who have been saying it's not an issue to them either?

PaganPollyanna · 19/11/2024 14:56

Helleofabore · 18/11/2024 20:42

It has been reported in media over the past years that unisex toilets have a higher risk for female people. Sadly, your OP is not unexpected.

This claim. I asked previously if you had any evidence for this but you didn't reply.

The media aren't well known for presenting facts backed up by data on emotive issues.

songaboutjam · 19/11/2024 14:48

AuntieJoyce · 19/11/2024 11:54

In my first job 35 years ago I was in exactly the “safest” type of toilet you describe here and a man came in to the office and up the stairs, into the ladies toilets and perved on me over the top of the cubicle three times. He ran off when I screamed.

The only way to stop this is floor to ceiling cubicles with lockable doors (if you want to make a point of it yes these could be opened from the outside in the event of an emergency as are designed now) and insufficient space at the top and the bottom of those doors so that someone can’t stand on the toilet seat in the next cubicle and look over at you to get their rocks off.

And I would be very surprised if the sort of person who enjoys this wouldn’t prefer women’s only toilets anyway.

and insufficient space at the top and the bottom of those doors so that someone can’t stand on the toilet seat in the next cubicle and look over at you to get their rocks off.

But they're still dangerous if someone collapses. The gap at the bottom of the door makes someone having a medical emergency immediately visible in a way a floor-to-ceiling cubicle does not.

Single-sex toilets with traditional cubicles aren't failsafe, but they are still, on balance, safer. This is because they reduce (but not eliminate - sadly it's very difficult to keep them out completely) the risk of perverts, while making the cubicles safer for people with medical emergencies.

I am sorry that you were perved on in the ladies' toilets. I can only imagine how unsafe that must have made your workplace feel, especially as a junior colleague in a first job.

You do raise a very valid point. Low-footfall and isolated toilets can certainly be unsafe, even if well designed. I think that's something that we often overlook in this discussion - in terms of women's safety, the amount of traffic in the toilets is often just as important as the way the toilets are set up.

Helleofabore · 19/11/2024 14:47

PaganPollyanna · 19/11/2024 14:39

@Helleofabore Like I said, I am not engaging in a pages long argument with you like other posters have.

You still haven't provided any evidence for your claims. I'm going to assume you don't have any.

What claims? Have I missed something?

lifeturnsonadime · 19/11/2024 14:42

@PaganPollyanna

Well the trend towards 'gender neutral' or unisex toilets in public places is to appease the tiny minority of males who identify as trans women.

So given that you seem to be ignoring the voices of women who are saying that we don't want these facilities for the numerous reasons stated upthread very eloquently by Helle and other posters by saying that you don't mind them, I wonder whether you have an agenda to appease this tiny minority or whether alternatively you are just acting on the normal female socialisation of lowering boundaries because that's what men want?

I just can't see what's 'in it' for a woman? How does it benefit you so much that you are prepared to ignore the concerns of other women and who gains from that?

PaganPollyanna · 19/11/2024 14:39

@Helleofabore Like I said, I am not engaging in a pages long argument with you like other posters have.

You still haven't provided any evidence for your claims. I'm going to assume you don't have any.

PaganPollyanna · 19/11/2024 14:37

lifeturnsonadime · 19/11/2024 13:29

So what's your narrative @PaganPollyanna , i've asked upthread.

Why do you put the wishes of a minority of males above the wishes of women?

Please show me where I have said that a minority of males wishes are more important than womens.

Helleofabore · 19/11/2024 13:45

Sorry

is it that you don't like the language people use to discuss issues that you do understand?

should be

is it that you don't like the language people use to discuss issues that you do understand are a valid concern for others?

Helleofabore · 19/11/2024 13:41

"I don't think the hand wringing helps anyone and instills fear in society."

Can you explain why you think raising the issue of any male in a female single sex toilet does not help others to have wider knowledge and more informed discussions?

As someone who has been on a PTA where these issues are discussed, I consider this is most definitely an issue for discussion on MN. Just because the OP was about an issue in a hair salon, doesn't make the discussion about the case limited to small businesses.

Helleofabore · 19/11/2024 13:35

PaganPollyanna · 19/11/2024 13:26

I don't think the hand wringing helps anyone and instills fear in society.

You think I'm the one that wants to dismiss posters when you're the one that consistently tries to shut people down by trying to make them look stupid so that you can push your narrative over everyone else's on multiple threads. Righto.

How and where have I tried to make you look 'stupid'? What narrative do I believe I have?

Or was it that I might have pointed out that you dismiss other's valid concerns based on nothing but that you don't consider the issues are worthy of discussion on MN or is it that you don't like the language people use to discuss issues that you do understand? Is that the issue?