To try and find some good teens books that don't push the LGBTQ agenda?

@FancyBiscuitsLevel bookshops/libraries though tend to divide books into 5 - 8, 8 - 12 and then Young Adult. Her daughter is in S1 which means she could actually be age 13 rather than 11.
Young Adult sections at the moment are full of books about relationships and sexuality because that's the current trend. As I said upthread 15 years ago or so it was all about vampires.
Books like Percy Jackson are in the 8 - 12 section. If she's 13 she might feel that she "shouldn't" be reading those because they are for younger children.

Percy Jackson is good, mine enjoyed that. There are a couple of characters that are gay, but that's later in the series. It's not the be all and end of their personalities just something in the sideline, same as other characters that get together in a straight relationship.

My DC also enjoyed Skullduggery pleasant at that age, but I've not read that myself .

Most of this conversation seems to be based on the premise the OP is correct, the majority of books aimed at 11 year olds are relationship themed and LGBT+ themed. That’s just not true.

id actually like to know what were the books she’d looked at that led her to dismiss all new literature for kids as pushing the gay agenda. Because there are really very few books in the “middle grade” (year 5-8, so aged 9-13) that are romantic relationship focussed, or even have people dating in them. Give me these titles that are causing upset, are they actually popular books aimed at children?

you don’t need to chose between LGBT+ books or classics / 90s kids books. The vast majority of books published over the last 5 years aimed at y5-8 children would meet the OPs criteria, but many will be fantasy, which apparently her dd doesn’t like. just look at the Waterstones nominations list (not the “older children” section as that’s aimed at year 9+), or the Carnegie medal for writing nominations list, or the week junior’s book prize.

there are a lot of very interesting and complex books being published aimed at 11 year olds that aren’t just about dating and romance. Any good book shop will have a range.

Have you read the books? I remember reading them when I was that age, and have read them since. I struggle to find anything like that whatsoever in them. I do think a lot of people disliked Pullman for his anti-church stance though.

The beauty of books is that children should be able to choose what they read. If that's Mallory Towers at tween age, fine. If it's HDM, that's also fine. But to prescribe it for them is wrong. I would never have necessarily told my parents what I liked about the books I read; I'd talk about the stories. I didn't want to tell them I liked romance at that age. It would have been embarrassing.

Being able to go to a library and being given free reign is a wonderful thing. It does incredible things for critical thinking, social understanding, and yes - even learning what they're comfortable with. They can always close the book or skip a chapter if a holding hands or kiss is too much. But these are developing brains.

I tutored Literature for years while I worked up in publishing. The first thing I would always do was ask for a family trip to the library. To let the child choose. That's what sparks joy, that's what gets them interested, not a rota of acceptable books ticked off a list by a homophobic mother with an agenda.

Exactly 😁
I'd probably have been mortified if my mum had been breathing down my neck trying to police what it was about from the blurb or trying to have a flick through it herself.
Who's Ralph?
Why are they laid down on the rug together?!
Mother! Go away😭🤣
If 12 year olds are reading about heterosexual relationships - why can't they about gay ones?
Doesn't mean you'll turn out gay yourself.

A lot of people felt that series went a little sideways with that sexual material - and some even felt that it was inappropriate given the ages of the kids involved. Nothing to do with them being anti-sex, just anti-sexualization of quite young kids in a book for kids.

Some 11 year olds are boy mad, but quite a lot aren't, and may be uninterested or even made to feel inadequate because there is so much pressure now around their sexual identities. Many 11 year old girls also find men, and the idea of sex, really rather scary, and are working at thinking about and developing in other areas of their personality or life.

YA publishing is very fixated on identity, including sexual identity, at the moment, and it means that newer books that don't get into those areas can be harder to find because they aren't being published.

Gregor the Overlander is a good exception to that though. There is maybe a sense that relationships are something for the future, but not really anything to be worried about as a tween, which is where a lot of kids that age are mentally.

@TofuTart well yes ......of course we all read Forever at 12 😂😂

I think His Dark Materials touches on that nicely. It does have romance, and if I remember there's a steamy scene towards the end of the trilogy? But it's a fantasy, and it's so cleverly done in terms of talking about love and relationships.

When I was in school, everyone was a bit boy/girl mad at that age. I and about 8 other girls had started periods, etc. This is why those books are important. But also why LGBT books are, too! You get the typical boy/girl tales in lots of them but it's important to have representation at such a pivotal time.

Large numbers of 11 year olds aren't interested in sex or boys yet, not because they are asexual, but because they are 11.

It's good for them to have books pitched to their stage of life.

It's a bit of a funny age, because YA stuff is sooo focused on sex and relationships (even an asexual focus is about something different than presexual) whereas books like Diary of a Wimpy Kid are going to be too young.

There's a definite stage that comes bewtween those two for many readers.

Obviously Forever is very sexual but it was always clear that it's for older readers

Think I was around 12/13 when I read it. Was 😳😁

👏 👏 👏

My ex was gay and in the closet until around...5 years ago? He was much older than me, so I think he's late 40s now.

Anyway, he called one night with no one to talk to, I was married and not seen him in years. It all came out. Mum and dad didn't talk about it, it was mocked in school, nothing on the telly apart from stuff that had insinuations of it being either wrong or funny.

His Mum died and he immediately came out. She'd been in his head for absolutely years.

I know myself that there are certain people in my family who won't even watch a romantic scene as an adult with their grown kids. The messages this sort of thing sends are huge. I'd never have told my Aunt I was bi. She'd have had a great big Irish Catholic heart attack. I remember the agony of watching Pride & Prejudice in her house! She wouldn't even say the word "gay", she'd mutter it.

If I'd grown up in her house, the library would have been my only escape. If she'd chosen my books? I'd have been miserable. If she'd asked me what I liked? I'd have lied.

Here's a thought too:

Maybe daughter cringes when relationships appear on screen because they are straight relationships and she already recognises she isn't but her mother's attitude is obvious to her and she finds it hard to watch because she knows she isn't "normal"

Maybe it's because she's asexual (oh gosh, sorry this is MN so that doesn't exist) and they make her feel "abnormal" again

Maybe she just doesn't like seeing relationships on screen.

Whatever it is, take her to the library or book shop and let her find her own books.

I remember the librarian giving me filthy looks when I got this! 😆 I loved it! Ate through them and cackled. Brilliantly written.

Angus, Thongs and Full Frontal Snogging was one of the big things when I was around that age. Tell me that was explicitly about relationships

Yep. It's just a bloody bore tbh, I sometimes actually forget these opinions still exist and didn't die out in 2006 when I was battling it all, as all LGBT teens do. And that was with access to books.

I think this is why it bores me. You spend your whole life arguing the same topics, and they never end. And then someone crawls out of a drainpipe and tries to tell you what homophobia is or isn't.

Fucking yawn. If it wasn't for the young people who I know do find these kind of threads, because I did myself, I wouldn't bloody bother. Need a cuppa and some chocolate now!

@Twoshoesnewshoes yes Margaret is about "Bras and Periods" as a classmate described it to one of our (male) teachers when we were about 12. Not really about Sexuality.
There are sexual references in some of Judy Blume's other books - for example Deenie mentions masturbation. But the plot is actually about scoliosis - not sexuality.
Obviously Forever is very sexual but it was always clear that it's for older readers 😁.
Although I re read Forever a few years back and there is a subplot about one of the male friends thinking he might be gay but that had completely gone over my head in the 100s of times I read and re-read the book as a teen. It's actually the only Judy Blume book that I don't really like and I think hasn't dated well compared to some of her others.

What about the other Judy Blume book I mentioned upthread? Forever?
You can't say that wasn't based on sex or sexuality.
It was filth. Pure FILTH 😁 which is why we liked it 🤣

How someone can genuinely post that you can't tell characters are gay without them having sex is just beyond me

"Oh no those scary gays are in my book"

What year are we in again?

Are you there God it’s me Margaret was our go to for learning about periods, bras, puberty, friendships, differences between families such as faith…I don’t actually remember anything about sex or sexuality so if if was in there it certainly wasn’t the main focus.

"The inclusion of explicitly sexual themes or themes relating to sexuality, sexual identity, or gender identity are new to literature aimed at teens, which is what the OP asked about. As a pp remarked, these things come in waves. Nobody is obliged to hop aboard the latest bandwagon."

If by 'new' you mean 'the past 50 years', because 'Are You There God, It's Me, Margaret' was published in 1970, and was criticised and repeatedly banned for discussing sexual topics.

Young adult fiction which many bright kids at KS3 are reading, often explores issues around developing sexuality, because it's interesting to young people going through adolescence.

It’s not an “agenda”. You are homophobic and transphobic. End of.

Sorry, as an aside in the 80s when I was a kid, we wouldn't have been having this dilemma as Section 28 would have put paid to me reading or learning about anything gay or lesbian anyway.
Seems some on this thread probably wistfully think of those "good old days".

Yep. Imagine having eyes over your shoulder while you look at a library shelf. No wonder the poor girl cringes and says she doesn't like romance. She's probably mortified.

I'm so glad I was allowed to grow up being able to choose my own books, and read what I like without my parents trying to censor or ban books from me as "they're not suitable."
It's definitely shaped and nurtured my love of reading.

Replying all in one, because you seem to have a habit of sending multiple posts and that's frankly irritating.

That is one of the deepest digging posts I've read for a while, but alright.

So, they're all about relationships. Most books are. Why does it matter if, amidst the many books about heterosexual relationships she reads, she reads a a few from a same sex POV? I also feel like you're skewing this. Why can't you have a book written from a gay female character's POV? Surely that would be compelling. Exploring relationships via girl hood.

You're just making lists of genres and plots. It's not backing up your point. I could do that, but that'd get pretty boring.

My point is, in a non explicit book, what's wrong with a gay main character? Who might have a crush on another woman? Or another man? These things will come up time and again in most books she reads, if she's not reading classics. It might be gentle but it'll be there because if she is reading YA, those are the topics.

And how odd. I was taught all of those books in school before 13. My DS is 8 and currently working on a project for school about a "light" version of Macbeth.

And again, if OP's child hasn't explored romantic relationships in books yet, that's fine. The issue here is that OP didn't come and post "none romance books please", she wanted specifically none LGBT books. And you know that.

By preventing those topics even in an innocent way, you know full well the insinuation. She's trying to curtail topics; her tone and language say it all.

So I think we're probably done, because I honestly have no interest arguing with someone who will beat a dead horse just to be right rather than explore an actual argument.