To think a child wanting to transition should be dealt as a mental health matter?

1. and what is that reason?
2. You think this really explains why in some Brighton schools 4 girls in a class of 20 suddenly acquired gender dysphoria - then 2 or 3 years later they all no longer had it?
3. Give evidence that anyone has ever killed themselves for this reason.

@BalletCat
Gender dysphoria is a real thing that has been an issue for centuries. Just pretending it doesn't exist won't make it go away

Once again you no longer have to have gender dysphoria to be trans.
This is why so many older transsexuals have an issue with what is happening.

Hmmm @TheKeatingFive 🤔 24/7 access to a pair of breasts sounds like a plausible explanation, even if they are a bit... hairy and well, your own. 🤷🏻‍♀️

I think this varies quite a lot by age.

Among younger people, what you're seeing is typical. But a large proportion of older men transitioning seem to be straight.

Make of that what you will.

What percentage of transmen are attracted to women and what percentage of trans women are attracted to men?

Genuinely interested as I know five young transpeople and all of them are attracted to the opposite sex. So essentially gay and leaning against gender norms.

I disagree. Parents may be led by what they think is right, but it doesn't mean it is actually best for their children. Parents have been horribly misled on this issue.

I know of a 6 year old that expressed a wish to be the opposite sex. (I knew this child v well and used to babysit for them a lot, that changed with covid/lockdowns). They were quite clear they were their real sex, happy with their body ... said "I'm a [real sex] who likes [thing stereotypically associated with opposite sex]". But at SIX, expressing a passing desire to be the opposite sex - inbetween identifying as a dog or dinosaur - caused their mother to immediately socially transition them. Even after this, they said things like the above.

Now, after years of being told they are the opposite sex, and being perceived as the opposite sex and so on at school and everywhere, they are facing a distressing puberty. No doubt they are now classed as having gender dysphoria and don't like their actual body. Doubt that would have happened if they hadn't been led to believe they could magically change sex, job done. They have grown up believing a lie. Their identity has developed based on a lie.

I gather there are children who display a deep distress at their sexed body at such a young age - although even then, it doesn't mean they are somehow the opposite sex. But this was not such a child. This was your run-of-the-mill small child who expressed an interest in being the opposite sex and instead of having reality explained to them, was led down a path of lies. Their mother actually seemed to revel in it all. (Father was horrified at this reaction, but coerced into going along with it. (Parents separated with 50.50 care, unusually father was the one who actually did more boring but necessary parenting like healthy meals, helping learning to read, sensible bedtimes, clean environment, days outdoors and whatever else ...)

Really? In my teens friendship group 5 out of 7 of the teens identified as having transgender identities.

I have also 4-5 friends who are/have been directly dealing with this very issue.

This is parenting site, I would think it highly unlike that 'the vast majority have next to zero lived experience' at all.

'A person with gender dysphoria now can talk about it and seek treatment rather than just living in silence and misery and then killing themselves, which is exactly what happens to people when you pretend their issues aren't real and don't let them talk about it or seek treatment.'

It is hugely harmful to spread misinformation about people with transgender identities committing suicide, particularly on a thread which will be read by parents seeking information.

There is no peer reviewed study that shows that suicide in people with transgender identities is reduced by transitioning. In fact there have been reports from medical professionals and at least one review that show that the rate is not reduced after treatment.

This is further complicated by the fact that due to the campaigning of extreme trans activists, many providers moved to the 'affirming only' model which then too often failed to diagnose co-morbid issues that severely impacted mental health. What has been found (I will find a link for this) is that people with transgender identities have the same level of suicidality as those people with the co-morbid conditions that those with the transgender identities tended to have.

This might be interesting for some:

https://x.com/segm_ebm/status/1761469819835269135?s=46&t=HTxp6zC_d4GZ2FFv4a-YeQ

Using a robust methodology, the study estimated the suicide rate for GD youth at 0.3% (0.51/1,000 pt-yrs), with no evidence that transition reduced suicides. In summarizing clinic-reported rates, we noted that the highest suicide rates are coming from the transitioned cases.

This review has many interesting points, but also has a section on suicide.

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-022-02472-8

Gender-Affirming Treatment of Gender Dysphoria in Youth: A Perfect Storm Environment for the Placebo Effect—The Implications for Research and Clinical Practice

Alison Clayton. 14 November 2022

And here is a study that had to issue a correction because it was pointed out that their conclusion was falsely claiming that an improvement to mental health was evidenced, when there was no evidence at all about the improvement to mental health after treatment.

Richard Branstrom (The Karolinska Institute) and John E. Pachankis from YALE.
ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.ajp.2020.1778correction

Here is a criticique of the above

https://psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.ajp.2020.19111165

and a notice about the results

www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2020/09/71296/?fbclid=IwAR1qhY36S81bxLIL-Gm04MemcwA8R0OBpG5iCy_CrUM6tGttrO98Un-WLTE

I have links for other papers that discuss that rates of suicide remain constant with or without treatment, plus that the weaponisation of suicide (such as people posting about suicide rates which lead people to believe that a person with a transgender identity needs gender affirming treatment or they will commit suicide for example) has had significant negative impact on the ability to deliver appropriate medical care to children and adolescents seeking care for this issue. If people are interested, I will post a few more.

However, such statements above is irresponsible when you consider the effect that those statements have when considered without appropriate context.

First thing i'd do is get them off the internet, and spend time together.

Then I'd listen carefully to them, despite knowing it's all bollocks.
But they would have to listen to me too. You can't win hearts and minds by screaming and shouting at one another.

Strengthen the relationship with mutual respect, so they know that i'm unequivocally on their side.

And MN frothers shouldn’t be wading en mass using what is often a painful and individual situation (that the vast majority have next to zero lived experience of)

I am autistic. I have lived experience of what these children are going through.

What I didn’t have back then was unregulated internet with people encouraging me to see my natural gender nonconformity as a sign that I was actually a boy. I can see that this would have felt logical to me - I didn’t feel like a girl (but have since understood that this doesn’t mean I should have been a boy but that I’m me, and it doesn’t matter if I don’t fit gender expectations).

What I also didn’t have was well meaning but stupid adults around me affirming how I was feeling - I mean, how obviously dangerous is that!

Many, maybe most autistic women have experience of this.

So what are you saying? There is a 'right' way to be male or female?

And to disagree with this is vile and anti woke?

Is that your position? 😵‍💫

Eh? I think you’ve misunderstood.

Anyone should be able to dress exactly as they wish and do what they want. This doesn’t literally make them the thing they dress up as though.

A girl wanting short hair, jeans and t shirts is still a girl no matter what is done to her. The problem is other people dictating that she’s a girl so should have long hair and girly clothes. That’s what society does now.

Pick any story about a child transitioning and you’ll find gender stereotypes.
“She wasn’t like the other girls, she wanted to play football and have short hair” or “Jack's dad did not approve of our child's effeminate behaviour... all the girly toys were thrown away and Jack was made aware that this was not appropriate” (< that’s a real quote by the way, from Susie Greene of Mermaids). All show the modern horror at children not conforming to ridiculous stereotypes or, shock horror, that they might be gay 🤔

We have a real disconnect with our children nowadays. They are not free to be themselves.

And MN frothers shouldn’t be wading en mass using what is often a painful and individual situation (that the vast majority have next to zero lived experience of) as a feminist anti woke football. It’s vile but thankfully not so prevalent in real life.

This is a great post - we should be reassuring our children that there is no 'right' way to be male or female

Where are the stats to back that up? Self harm and suicidal idealisation need different professionals. If you now treat every gender questioning child as mentally ill as per the op they will need to access MH professionals that are already snowed under when there is no risk.

Also you suggesting autistic children/teens can’t dress up as animals or do what brings them deregulation, having to fit into social norm is exactly what isn’t ok. Dictating what autistic kids / teens can and can’t do or how they should behave is exactly not what to do.

Good luck finding a therapist, questioning this could be seen as 'trans conversion therapy' (oh I know, it's a joke).

Yes - it’s very wrong, and probably greatly limits the psychological support that people can receive. It’s so wrong.

A person with gender dysphoria now can talk about it and seek treatment rather than just living in silence and misery and then killing themselves, which is exactly what happens to people when you pretend their issues aren't real and don't let them talk about it or seek treatment.

@BalletCat evidence?

You need to be very careful what you say about suicide in this context.

Good luck finding a therapist, questioning this could be seen as 'trans conversion therapy' (oh I know, it's a joke).

The pressure on MH services could be greatly reduced by not giving this subject the gravity it seems to be given, especially when there are kids in real distress who need help.

Suggesting to children that they can change sex is the most heinous and cruel lie. Why on earth is it even suggested, let alone given the credence it seems to be.

The default for medicine, to do no harm, suggests that first line treatment should be to encourage the person to accept their healthy body as is.

And as a society we need to do the work too - be a lot less homophobic and a lot more accepting of non conventional gender presentation. A highly feminine presenting gay boy is absolutely worthy of love and respect as he is, it should not automatically be assumed he is a woman trapped in a man’s body.

And we should avoid where possible the route of extreme body modification, that can render the person infertile, carries significant risk and makes it harder for that person to find a life partner. I believe the Cass review was absolutely correct, Until there is better evidence in place for its effectiveness, we should not be subjecting people to these experimental procedures. It’s cruel and unethical.

I mean, yes of course.
What can happen though is that trans is (was?) a hugely popular thing and overtook other mental illnesses in terms of sympathy, understanding, support and funding.

In terms of understanding I feel that allowing a child to transition is not understanding at all, it’s ignoring everything we know about teen years completely, particularly autistic teens! No goth was encouraged to tattoo their lips black because they will be a goth forever. Parents rolled their eyes and let them get on with it.

You sound fun

Evidence points to trans in teens being a social contagion, not something like left handedness that is suddenly allowed to flourish.

There are definitely links with autism but likely because those of us who are autistic often have quite different interests and clothes tastes to non autistic girls, which go against gender stereotypes. In the 80s it was fine for girls to have short hair, wear “boys” clothes, play with tricks and footballs, and no one at all told them they were boys for doing so.

There are growing numbers of people being diagnosed with autism, I am one of them, but I suspect part of the problem is again rigid societal expectations and having to live in a way that doesn’t suit us. Schools are not safe environments, phones mean that there is no down time. Modern life is not suiting swathes of people, we’re currently seeing the effects on those who are affected most. Trans is not progression, it’s a symptom of something that’s not going well in the world.

MH services are massively overstretched. Suicidal and self harming children aren’t getting the help they need, ditto many with EDs. Children not at risk but questioning gender shouldn’t be jumping the queue by default. Every case is individual and should be treated as such.

In the case I personally know the family were ignored until the girl decided she was a boy, then a whole supportive (affirmative) process was magically laid out in front of them. Parents who’d been previously quizzed and criticised for their daughter’s behaviour (as is typical with autism) were suddenly compassionate and helpful.

From the daughter’s point of view (no longer identifies as trans) no help was given as she didn’t get the puberty blockers she desperately wanted, so if you asked her the process was pointless. I suspect had she got what she wanted (blockers and mastectomy, as happens in other countries) and then desisted her view of it would be very different and more in line with detransitioners who were rushed into it as no child should be taking any steps to transition ever.

Gender is such an arbitrary concept yet gender stereotypes have got more and more rigid in the last decades.

Yesterday I met a young lady circa 12 years old at a guess wearing a large tail, ears, heavy (goth style) make up and her parents called her fluffy ... they were offended because I didn't pander to it and basically treated her like any other customer, politely but no reference to her persona. Go figure! Not sure what you are meant to say to a child dressing up?

Children should be allowed to express themselves by cosmetically changing their appearance but we shouldn't be pandering too much to it. If they want to be known as a different name that's not such a big deal but beyond clothes and hair cuts it's a case of wait until you are an adult in 99% of cases. There are a few exceptions who definitely need psychological support younger but mostly they will grow out of it, I know several who have