to think the 'Ask for Angela' pub safety scheme is inherently flawed?

Probably because that would involve making it law. And it's probably a thing that will date - in 20 years time Angela just won't be a thing - it would be like the current adult generation asking for Betty or Jean - it would sound completely out of place.

Also if you make it law, that also means statute on what the bar staff are meant to do with the information, call taxi, police, what?
What if your in a busy nosy pub and the person asking for Angela isn't picked up correctly? Does that put a liability on to the bar staff for not hearing correctly?

It could also make it open to abuse, ask for Angela and the bar is obliged to call a taxi - what if it's closing time - does the bar put you outside or do you get to wait in the warm pub?

You’ll be noticing more posters and campaigns at the moment as we approach International Prevention of Violence Against Women awareness day on 25 November. Marks the start of 16 days of activism.

White Ribbon is an organisation that focuses on changing mens behaviour. It’s quite evangelical, but a good approach and one that can be tailored to fit different organisations.

I was pleased to see the football pundits wearing white ribbons on the 25th last year, but overall needs to gain more traction still. Another area of my previous work in this area involved arranging informal talks in schools, colleges and workplaces to start conversations, raise awareness and get men/boys thinking and talking about their behaviour towards women. White Ribbon use “Never abuse, never ignore and never use violence against women and girls”. A very strong focus on the bystander effect and how men can recognise, model acceptable behaviour and influence friends/colleagues/sons etc.

This work reached into businesses, councils, housing organisations, betting shops, taxi firms, bin collection companies, casino, football clubs and other male dominated spaces, as well as those most likely to encounter vulnerable women, hence housing organisations, but also CAB and religious organisations.

Initiatives can feel gimmicky, and I just knew that London Mayor’s “maaaate” initiative launched last year wouldn’t catch on, or have intended reach. That said, in my view no one scheme has the reach or capacity to be all things to all people, and joined up approach definitely required to make a lasting difference.

Nobody’s given a reason yet why it can’t be made mandatory as a part of their licensing conditions apart from it’s not perfect or that a lot of bar staff aren’t currently trained in it.
The whole idea of making it mandatory is that if connnected to a venue’s licence to trade, then staff do have to be trained in Ask Angela.

A pub that I visit quite regularly has posters on the inside of the toilet cubicle doors about this . I must admit that I have wondered how effective it is,whether all the bar staff are briefed about it,and whether you'll get a blank look and 'There's no one called Angela working here' as a response.

I think it’s depressing all these schemes are needed in the first place to keep women safe.

On the way to and from work today I realised how many posters there are on trains and at stations warning men passengers that catcalling, touching, intimidating staring etc on public transport is sexual harassment. It’s ridiculous that this is even a thing. Grown men adults need to be reminded not to behave like disgusting human beings. It just feels so pervasive.

Its full of flaws tbh. There's no mechanism for getting away from the crazy man anyway and staff wont let you hide anywhere. You may as well be honest and say you're with a pervy man not the Angela nonsense.

Go straight to bouncer? DS (uni student) told me that he had a girl randomly slap his bum in the club. He went to the bouncer. The staff found what happened on CCTV, located the girl and forced her to apologise.

They then kicked the girl (and her friends out).

It's an option that's there if someone chooses to use it. They will be aware of the potential pitfalls. Don't treat them like idiots

Yes, my maternity hospital had something similar- when you went into the toilet to do your urine sample there was a poster and a red pen to mark your sample with if you needed help.

The only Angela I ever knew was my mum

I've never understood it either, I would think that if the bloke you're with can hear you asking for Angela he'll either start asking questions about who Angela is or he'll know about the scheme and know you're trying to get away from him. And if he can't overhear you asking why do you need a code at all, just say that you need help as you think you're in danger. Would think it'd be much more sensible to have a standard procedure for bar staff to follow if they're asked for help, and posters saying that the bar is part of the scheme. Though of course a dangerous man would probably just not take his dates to bars that were part of the scheme...

I'd worry about bit about this too.
Once in my younger days I asked a bouncer for help to get a taxi to leave somewhere in a hurry. He gave me his number instead, then refused to let me back inside when I figured out what his game was. I had no choice but to take the risk of walking away on my own. Some men people will take advantage of any situation given the chance.

meet in a group? have you ever been on a date?

Firstly most people would find it very weird if you said 'Yes I'd love to meet up, I'll bring two of my friends and you bring two of yours, none of whom know each other.' Secondly why would two of my friends (married, with kids, working, busy jobs) WANT to spend several hours sitting awkwardly at a pub with random people they don't know, once or twice a week so their single friend can get to know someone? It's a big ask! Also assuming people live in the same vicinity as both the date and people they feel close enough to ask to accompany them, which today isn't that likely.

Besides which as a pp said, it might not be a random man, it could be a friend who gets weird or an existing partner. Perhaps he's taken her phone so she can't just 'call the police,' and, tbh, it's incredibly naïve to think the police will turn up with blues and twos to a non-emergency situation.

The responsibility isn't on the bar staff to keep someone safe, there is no intention for them to confront the man, just to help her exit the situation, for example, call a taxi for the woman.

This just isn't true.
Social workers and healthcare workers who are involved with things like the red dot program described upthread need support from their employers to deal with vicarious trauma and burnout.
It's really not responsible, as a society, to create an expectation that hospitality workers are well placed to help women getting away from violent men.

@Pluvia "But above all, it relies on the nerve of the woman to expose her situation and lose her dignity by asking for help in public, in a place where others can hear the conversation. At least asking for Angela doesn't reveal to any other potential predators that she's in trouble."
But this is exactly the issue I have with the scheme: it reinforces the idea that it's undignified for a woman to be the vitim of sexual assault - groping, threatening comments, whatever. And that she should be the one to vacate the public sphere, as unobtrusively as possible, and never doing anything as shameful as naming what it is the perpertrator has done to her.
@DaisysChains put it perfectly:
"the emphasis has to be (imo) on making abusers uncomfortable in public spaces, make it normal for the general public to notice abusive behaviour and police it societally - half the time it is done in plain sight as abusers know it is currently more or less expected by everyone
scatter several posters about with reminders to not to abuse, sexually assault or rape anyone - one above every urinal and in every stall of every toilet males have access to
and some about the public part of the bars (with “we’re watching you, you fucking pervert” maybe?)
we need to put the onus back onto behavioural change of abusers and stop expecting everyone else to have to live like fugitives with code words and safe zones and the like"

The rest of the workforce isn't, given that poorly paid, inflexible jobs with responsibility such as care and TA work are so hard to fill. So I don't see why young workers would be any different, especially not in a sector that already has a recruitment problem.

I'm not sure - it’s still a good idea, I just think it’s something people don’t think about. It links back to the bar/bar staff responsibility as well. Any scheme like this will be difficult and it is better than nothing but really you’ve outlined the crux of the societal issue. Women generally have to be on guard with everyone! Yes it’s a small chance but it’s always there!

All of us, even us ancient ones here, started out working at a very low rate. £2.50 an hour picking strawberries in 1980 was my first wage. I didn't put in minimum effort. I'm horrified at this 'You're on your own, love, because I'm only on NMW' shite. Young people are better than this, surely?

I also think ordering an “angel shot with lime” as code for “call the police” is performative nonsense. The police aren’t coming out with blue lights because someone has indicated that they don’t feel safe with their date, especially if the bar staff are unable to say why.

A woman may be feeling uneasy about a man she’s met for a blind date or not liking the way a customer is looking at her and just need to stay at the bar chatting for a moment while she calls a taxi. An escort out to the taxi might also be welcome. That’s the kind of thing the scheme can help with. If she knows she’s in serious danger she can ask to call the police.

We’ve tried the nicey nicey approach, we’ve bent over backwards reassure NAMALT and not to offend the ‘good ones’

and you know what now there’s a bloody shedload of incels whining that they ANLT but women won’t date them and so why not slag them off at best or murder as many as possible

what I’m saying in my post is that males abusing females is already normalised

what we need to do is stand up against it and normalise mutual respect and care

we’ve been running and hiding from their abuse for centuries and change has only really happened when we have stopped running and stood our ground - or advanced forward - like the strikes, protests, marches, organising and agitating for votes, for pay, for rape legislation, for martial rape legislation, forced marriages, fgm etc etc

how many more women and girls lives will be lost to abuse by males while we dance around the poor menz feelings

’good men’ if they really were ‘good’ would be out there marching for us demanding their fellow males stopped abusing women and besmirching the male sex

’good men’ would be demanding the very best of the best investigations into abuse, the most thorough, and well-informed courts and appropriately long sentences - why?

well hopefully bc they would want women not to be abused but also bc atm since the whole process is so woeful ppl rightfully think no smoke without fire and see abusive men everywhere

if the process was robust start to end then an investigation would be more trusted, a court sentence would be more trusted - not 100% maybe but very fucking sure not the tiny less than 4% it currently is

right at this moment in time we cannot even trust police not to rape and murder us - I’m not sure how much more men can do to debase themselves further - us turning a blind eye in case we offend the ‘good ones’ is doing no-one any favours at all

(except the abusers ofc)

I think this would be a very good idea.

A staff member could go into the toilets and check they’re ok and then deal with the situation depending on what’s needed.

It’s much less risky than saying something over a bar, and most men who are controlling or dangerous would not leave their partner to go up to the bar alone but they can’t stop them going into the toilet alone.

They are meant to be in women’s loos but male workers are the rules but then these go on dates themselves and so know the code.

If you go on a date with a cleaner of toilets or anyone working in hospitality, then they’re going to know the code which seems to defeat the point.

I think the idea is great but it is very flawed.

I don’t know but perhaps it’s harder for people to ask for help and say those words, rather than saying a code word.

I know there’s a code word to get free sanitary products or a hot drink in a supermarket because it’s seen as embarrassing to say the words, so maybe this is a similar idea that people are more likely to ask for help if they don’t need to say the words.

On most cases I don't get why it's a problem men know this - assuming a woman has approached a staff member at this point she is now away from the potential predator and for other men it's a warning that there are steps to take if they get sinister and to galvanise others into maybe doing something if they observe it, as described by a pp.

It might be better to have a phone number in the ladies’ toilets that women could text to ask for help - that way the phone could be assigned to the most suitable person in the venue that evening (someone who is willing/ able to deal with the situation) and the woman could specify what she wants to happen.