to think the 'Ask for Angela' pub safety scheme is inherently flawed?

I've always told my Daughter to go to the toilets & ask another female to go get a member of staff if she feels in danger & needs help. The concept of 'Ask Angela' is a good idea however, if it's promoted publicly then the chances are a bad date would know about it & keep an eye on the person they're with & not let them go to the bar. Girls & women & Males, should be encouraged to speak up to anyone be it bar staff, door staff or another customer if they feel in any way uncomfortable.

Seriously it’s like discussing the problem of a pack of dogs running into your house every time you open the door to leave and shitting and pissing everywhere, chewing up your furniture and biting your children:

do you

a) have a series of conversations about why you should never leave the house or open your door again, or how to wash the piss out of carpets and wipe shit off the walls, whether you can afford new furniture regularly, how to minimise the bites to your children or how to teach them self-defence and to laugh it off

or do you

b) train the dogs that can be trained not to do it, leash others that can be in public sometimes but not fully trusted and lock up all the rest?

the only people who should be inconvenienced by abusers’ behaviours are the abusers themselves - until we put it all back on them we’ll still be stuck wringing our hands or pointing fingers at each other about how we’re not coping

we shouldn’t have to ‘cope’ we should lock the fuckers up

I owned a large restaurant /bar Canada. In the women's bathrooms I had a framed sign. It said "having a bad date? feel unsafe? need help to get out of here safely? Ask your server or bartender if you saw them in timmies (coffee shop) and we will help. ALL of our staff knew exactly what that meant. And it was used a couple of times

But has your pub actually joined this scheme and put posters up about it?

I think the general point of these schemes isn't really the code word - it's making woman aware that if they need help, the pub or restaurant are willing to provide it.

I've seen the posters in the women's toilets in loads of places and I think I would have found it really reassuring when I was younger and dating.

There's no way on earth that he got barred from a Spoons for walking a woman to a bus stop.

I work in a pub. I've just asked all the staff and not a single one was aware of this at all.

What is a clear procedure?
How will you measure the induction process?

You can't let pubs set their standards and make it a legal requirement.

Nothing is that simple.

It issue is the second you make it law to have a procedure, you then need consequences for not following the procedure.

Any procedure that involves anything more than phoning a taxi, has potential cost or risk.
Cost in staff waiting with customer, cost in staff not making as many sales while trying to help the potential victim.
Risk to the staff being attacked by either the 'victims' or the potential attacker.

It's really not on to make it law. It will cause far more issues than it solves.

@SoiledMyselfDuringSomeTurbulence Yes as a voluntary thing it does a job. The message has to be, "Help if you can but don't put your own safety at risk"

And the message is there to people to ask for help if they need to get out of a sticky situation.

I certainly don't think it can or should be a legal obligation. Nor do I think it should be attached to licensing conditions.

Practically speaking, if this were to be legally formalised as a safeguarding duty like some posters want, it would probably need two staff members present. For everyone's protection, since employers also have a duty of care towards their staff. The more people want to try and scale this up, the greater and less realistic the expectations of the minimum wage fairies.

I can see that the system as it is now can be of some use, but it's not practical as a legal requirement.

I can see both sides. It's good for awareness, and some places are on the ball, but might just be confusing for others.

Probably the most effective thing is to approach the bar and say a form of "that man over there is making me feel uncomfortable, do you mind if I sit here at the bar while I call a cab/friend etc".

There should be at least one staff member who is experienced enough (and likely well versed in dealing with drunk customers) who can be aware and make sure you get out the door safe. And then if said man approaches, say something of the lines of "she doesn't want to talk to you, so please leave or I'll ask you to leave etc". And repeat to fade.

I've never heard of this and I work in a hotel bar. It will probably be confusing as our receptionist is called Angela.

Exactly, what about staff relying on lifts is their lift meant to wait what about those who used public transport?

You can't obligate people to hang around to suit others

And what if they want to go home? After a 12 hour shift everyone and everything can screw themselves.

Execpt it is.
Again, the choices and devious of others are not the responsibility of bar staff. There's roles for that. It's not on them.
It's not popular and it's unwanted.

So who's paying the staff to wait with the person?
How do staff know the person they are trying to help is genuine?
How do they know they aren't going to be robbed or attacked by the person?

It's a lovely idea but the more you think about it the more holes you see in the plan, esp any plans to put an obligation onto the publican

As long as they are not selling drinks staff/friends etc can stay after licenced hours perfectly legally.

One thing many posters have not picked up on is that men could have to ask for Angela too for example:

• Many years ago I went on a first date with a woman (I'm a man) and unknown to me she'd been drinking or taking drugs earlier in the day and got quite aggressive and unpleasant very soon into the evening. Thankfully it was a pub which I knew and the staff knew me so I was able to leave.
• A man may have been threatened with violence as in 'I'll be waiting outside for you"
• It may be two men dating and one feels uncomfortable

That is why ask for Angela is published the way it is. I do think that a slip system on the inside of toilet doors would be a better option

Thats my point, if you don't really know the person first date etc A coffee shop at least doesn't add alcohol into the mix and they are normally brighter than a pub.

If your in a domestic abuse situation rather than a date you can escape from you need to do a bit more than ask the 18yo behind the bar to call you a taxi

Wasnt nigella Lawson assaulted by her husband Charles saatchi in the middle of the morning?

So a coffee shop is no safer than a pub, a tesco, subway, McDonald's etc. Its not where you are, its who you are with.

It's hardly a secret code if every bar staff member knows it.

It's not an effective secret code if not every staff member knows it.

It's dumb as shit.

You are much better just saying, please can you help me I think I'm at risk. Because ultimately your date will probably know who Angela is anyway so if you ask for Angela and they know and hear you are in danger anyway!

It's STUPID. It over complicates a simple issue, leading to potential miscommunications anyway.

I see what you mean, but the fact that some people will be on minimum wage is irrelevant.Your ability and willingness to help shouldn’t be based on how much you earn

The direct quote you use here confirms what I said, so the use of 'actually' was odd. There were staff who said they'd feel vulnerable themselves. That means the same as 'Staff in some felt that they would feel too vulnerable themselves'.

And it's an important point, given that it wasn't going to be theoretical for the people involved. Presumably those staff were very well aware both that there's always the risk of dickheads and there's alcohol involved, hence some of them felt vulnerable. The existence of other staff who might feel ok with it (and there is no guarantee of one always being on) doesn't cancel that out.