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Has this friendship run its course?

56 replies

Chattenoire · 12/11/2024 09:21

I've written about this friend before.

I think we've been friends for 3 years, we met after I posted in a local Facebook group.

Although we don't have a lot in common, we liked each other enough and there was enough "chemistry".

However, this year things changed. We started noticing that her DH will look for ways to NOT split the tabs evenly when going out for example.

Then she decided she'd come to cook for me to celebrate my birthday (I did post about that) I was extremely uncomfortable about the idea, and in the end they came and watched the football (which I totally dislike).

We also looked after their dog and in turn they looked after hours. We hosted their dog while they'd just come and check on ours (it was only for the odd night away) but what they never told is that the neighbours had complained before about our dog being distressed. We thought she was fine. We now have a wonderful dog sitter, but if I had known from the very start our dog was so unhappy we would never have done it.

Then this weekend she came to pop in with minimal notice (10 mins) and when I was telling her about my latest conundrum (which has the full support of my DH) and she just started telling me off. So I feel like I can't be ME around her so to speak.

I'm ND and I have severe attachment issues. I go through phases of really not liking people, so I don't know if I'm going through one. I don't have many friends (just another one who I like and we have more in common) but then that's it.

From a very utilitarian POV I'm concerned about losing the few friends that I have.

OP posts:
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Falalalalah · 15/11/2024 11:41

Chattenoire · 13/11/2024 12:02

It was the tone and type of criticism. Saying that someone is a "Loser junkie/stoner" is not a nice thing to have said. Yes, the other friends called them "pretentious" but I don't think it's on the same level.

However they unequivocally knew I don't like football like AT ALL. Why on earth suggest to do that to celebrate that for my birthday at my home?

Again, though, you can't control other people's behaviour, you can only control your own. It was your birthday in your house. It's not clear why you didn't say 'Watching football would my nightmare birthday -- let's do X' but let them show up at your house to watch football.

You also can't control what your friends think of your other friends. If the person does use drugs, or was visibly under the influence when they met, calling them a 'junkie/stoner' is just accurate, surely? I have friends of whom I'm very fond, who simply don't like one another. They experience one another as rude and cold, and I see why, despite me not experiencing either in that way. It's not unusual. People just don't get along.

I'd also say that there are all types of friends. I have some friends I go to the pub with but wouldn't confide in about something personal. I have other longer term friends whom I would trust with private stuff, but might not want to take on a fun night out with a big group. You don't necessarily have to 'end' anything, just see less of this friend.

Chattenoire · 14/11/2024 11:47

AutisticHouseMove · 14/11/2024 06:47

OP, I suspect I'm older than you as my children are both adults now. I'm also autistic so I find friendships difficult and have done since I was at school.

I currently have 3 friends. 2 are an autistic couple I see probably 2 or 3 times a year and the other is also autistic and I see her probably 2 or 3 times a year too.

I've really tried with friendships. Read a lot on MN to try and understand how NT people think, had autistic friends but it doesn't really work for me. I find that with autistic friends, our traits/needs often clash and I still don't really understand a lot of NT thinking and expectations around friendships.

It ebbs and flows. Sometimes, I have more friends other times I have fewer. My boundaries are very firm now though. Because I know what works for me and what doesn't. I don't hang on to friendships now amd am happy to let them go if they are distressing in any way. I'm also clear about what works for me and what doesn't.

Eg in the bill splitting situation, I'd just be really clear about what I'd paid for and what was their responsibility. I don't 'hint' because I know I don't pick up on hints and prefer people to be clear and direct so I make sire I do that for them too. Some people appreciate it and others don't.

Ultimately, if people.don't enhance each other's lives, they're not friends they're just people who know each other and want someone to socialise with/company. I worry less about having friends and more about my own peace of mind nowadays

Friends should be people you like and enjoy spending time with.

Thank you very much for your kind words, you've basically nailed it.

I think she did enhance my life at some point, but it was the "honeymoon" stage if you like.

The truth is that I now don't feel comfortable confiding in her, so that isn't a friendship, is it?

OP posts:
AutisticHouseMove · 14/11/2024 06:47

OP, I suspect I'm older than you as my children are both adults now. I'm also autistic so I find friendships difficult and have done since I was at school.

I currently have 3 friends. 2 are an autistic couple I see probably 2 or 3 times a year and the other is also autistic and I see her probably 2 or 3 times a year too.

I've really tried with friendships. Read a lot on MN to try and understand how NT people think, had autistic friends but it doesn't really work for me. I find that with autistic friends, our traits/needs often clash and I still don't really understand a lot of NT thinking and expectations around friendships.

It ebbs and flows. Sometimes, I have more friends other times I have fewer. My boundaries are very firm now though. Because I know what works for me and what doesn't. I don't hang on to friendships now amd am happy to let them go if they are distressing in any way. I'm also clear about what works for me and what doesn't.

Eg in the bill splitting situation, I'd just be really clear about what I'd paid for and what was their responsibility. I don't 'hint' because I know I don't pick up on hints and prefer people to be clear and direct so I make sire I do that for them too. Some people appreciate it and others don't.

Ultimately, if people.don't enhance each other's lives, they're not friends they're just people who know each other and want someone to socialise with/company. I worry less about having friends and more about my own peace of mind nowadays

Friends should be people you like and enjoy spending time with.

WhatNoRaisins · 14/11/2024 06:21

It sounds like you don't work together very well. I don't know if a relationship can endure very different communication styles with little flexibility. Personally I tend to avoid people that expect me to read between the lines lot as I'm not good at this.

TammyJones · 14/11/2024 05:53

OriginalUsername2 · 13/11/2024 12:50

The woman in question is “pushy”, the husband is a cheeky fucker. They’re both judgemental. And they’re selfish.

Anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together would know a non-football fan would not like to watch football on their birthday. She just ignored your pleas that you made several times over months.

I would give these people no more headspace.

Edited

This in spades.
Get rid and make room for new friends in your life - they will come.

OriginalUsername2 · 13/11/2024 12:50

The woman in question is “pushy”, the husband is a cheeky fucker. They’re both judgemental. And they’re selfish.

Anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together would know a non-football fan would not like to watch football on their birthday. She just ignored your pleas that you made several times over months.

I would give these people no more headspace.

Chattenoire · 13/11/2024 12:47

Barrenfieldoffucks · 13/11/2024 12:38

Agreed.

I also question the 'telling off'. She popped round, you started telling her about your problems, she started 'telling you off'. Is this another misreading of cues? Your interpretation of 'telling off' being different?

I was again, not looking for advice just validation.

If anything it was praise to my DH for being wonderfully understanding about how I feel. She told me "it was my place to be there.

To me it was a simple "well I don't want to" but she did make me feel like I was letting my DH down (and his family) but I wasn't!

OP posts:
Barrenfieldoffucks · 13/11/2024 12:38

Agreed.

I also question the 'telling off'. She popped round, you started telling her about your problems, she started 'telling you off'. Is this another misreading of cues? Your interpretation of 'telling off' being different?

LadyQuackBeth · 13/11/2024 12:33

OP, you need to be asking these questions at the time and to these people, not on here. None of us know why football was suggested, but it's clear that you at least contributed in changing it from a short, efficient conversation about what you'd like to a saga that made nobody happy. Can you see that it would have been better all round to be clearer?

You have very high expectations of your friends to read between the lines, but want things spelled out for you. It is hard to realise that your formula for communicating and standards are not universally applicable, but you won't maintain the friendships you want like this. Nobody is going to be perfect, friendship is about accepting and loving people for who they are.

Chattenoire · 13/11/2024 12:02

Falalalalah · 13/11/2024 11:54

With respect, OP, you're going to need to be way more flexible in your communication styles if you are going to live and make friends outside your home culture. Not everyone is going to understand things you think are obvious.

The kind of indirectness or 'subtlety' you seem to imagine you both view as 'necessary politeness' clearly isn't working here, if you continually fail to communicate what you actually want and don't want to her.

You think it's clear an excuse means 'no', but she clearly didn't get that memo. (And Latin American and Eastern European cultures are very different, and I imagine that they use indirectness differently, as even two neighbouring countries like England and Ireland use indirectness very differently -- an English friend moved to Ireland a few years ago, and despite thinking she was a comparatively 'politely indirect' person in her home culture, she's far too direct for many of the Irish circles she's moving in.)

Either way, your 'subtlety' isn't working. You are not communicating, and you are blaming her for not understanding what you mean, but have not said, the way you think she should understand.

You are currently blaming her for not understanding that your 'soft negatives' about your birthday in fact meant 'No'.

You're blaming her, or possibly her husband, for your husband not being clear about having already paid your part of the bill.

You're blaming her for not understanding that when you posted about sharing workspace to an MeetUp group you know she's a member of, that your open question about sharing workspace wasn't intended for her, and you actively don't want to share a workspace with her. Although she's a member of the group your posted on.

You're also blaming these friends for being 'too direct' in criticising other friends of yours, despite the fact that it turned out those other friends (whom you are not blaming) didn't like the friends you are posting about either. So both sets of friends dislike one another, but you're only blaming the ones who said it within a few months rather than the ones who waited two years to say so -- ie, in this case, you're criticising the friends for being too direct.

And honestly, OP, wouldn't you rather know almost immediately that two sets of friends don't get on, rather than spend two full years unknowingly inviting them to things together, only to discover they've hated every second?

I'd certainly rather know, so as not to inflict unnecessary irritation on anyone.

It was the tone and type of criticism. Saying that someone is a "Loser junkie/stoner" is not a nice thing to have said. Yes, the other friends called them "pretentious" but I don't think it's on the same level.

However they unequivocally knew I don't like football like AT ALL. Why on earth suggest to do that to celebrate that for my birthday at my home?

OP posts:
Falalalalah · 13/11/2024 11:54

Chattenoire · 12/11/2024 12:41

Because I didn't want to be "impolite", plus she already knew that I despise football (for example).

We both come from cultures where you "read between the lines" open frank communication is something you do only when really annoyed.

With respect, OP, you're going to need to be way more flexible in your communication styles if you are going to live and make friends outside your home culture. Not everyone is going to understand things you think are obvious.

The kind of indirectness or 'subtlety' you seem to imagine you both view as 'necessary politeness' clearly isn't working here, if you continually fail to communicate what you actually want and don't want to her.

You think it's clear an excuse means 'no', but she clearly didn't get that memo. (And Latin American and Eastern European cultures are very different, and I imagine that they use indirectness differently, as even two neighbouring countries like England and Ireland use indirectness very differently -- an English friend moved to Ireland a few years ago, and despite thinking she was a comparatively 'politely indirect' person in her home culture, she's far too direct for many of the Irish circles she's moving in.)

Either way, your 'subtlety' isn't working. You are not communicating, and you are blaming her for not understanding what you mean, but have not said, the way you think she should understand.

You are currently blaming her for not understanding that your 'soft negatives' about your birthday in fact meant 'No'.

You're blaming her, or possibly her husband, for your husband not being clear about having already paid your part of the bill.

You're blaming her for not understanding that when you posted about sharing workspace to an MeetUp group you know she's a member of, that your open question about sharing workspace wasn't intended for her, and you actively don't want to share a workspace with her. Although she's a member of the group your posted on.

You're also blaming these friends for being 'too direct' in criticising other friends of yours, despite the fact that it turned out those other friends (whom you are not blaming) didn't like the friends you are posting about either. So both sets of friends dislike one another, but you're only blaming the ones who said it within a few months rather than the ones who waited two years to say so -- ie, in this case, you're criticising the friends for being too direct.

And honestly, OP, wouldn't you rather know almost immediately that two sets of friends don't get on, rather than spend two full years unknowingly inviting them to things together, only to discover they've hated every second?

I'd certainly rather know, so as not to inflict unnecessary irritation on anyone.

Chattenoire · 13/11/2024 11:35

Waterboatlass · 13/11/2024 11:10

No the birthday was pushy and I wouldn't have liked having to say 'no' twice but it required clarity. You didn't have to accept.

I totally get you, don't get me wrong on that, it's clear youre not a match for besties as it would be exhausting just being yourself and you want your close friends just to understand you, even if they're very different. I also am more along the lines of wanting to do more rather than less to help and am absolutely not forensic over bills in the way they are and these things read as quite churlish.

She's reminding me a bit of a long term friend whom I've questioned at times. She's got her great points though, she won't be getting ditched but my expectations have been tailored pretty sharply around her past behaviour and I won't be putting myself out for her again (unless it's an emergency which I doubt will happen as we live some distance away and she has family nearby).

I also get wanting periods of solitude.

But I think this is a good reflection opportunity rather than going back to 'shes a wrongun, I've been badly done to'.

If you posted in a meetup group that includes her then you were addressing her as much as the others. There is no reason she should assume otherwise . If you didn't want to include her, you should have started another group. She's not perfect but she's not a mind reader either.

Obv cut her off if you want but you mentioned not wanting to lose friends and it's quite clear why friendships are stressful for you so this will probably happen again. You have to express boundaries clearly, not implicitly. You can say a clear 'no thank you' politely but without brooking any argument.

It's a local FB group with hundreds so it's not like I can start a new one! But yes I get your point.

But yes you're 100% that I want my friends to understand me. We don't have a lot in common and most importantly I want friends to be there to listen. I like validation not advice.

And it's kind of exhausting I WFH, I don't socialise, I have really next to zero friends, but the only person that shares most my likes is my DH. I know that makes me extremely lucky, but I'd like to "share" my life with someone else too, I just haven't found the "one" so to speak.

I want to be able to go to a concert that I actually like, or a film and then go for brunch. Window shop. Have a bit of a moan about Alice from accounts. I think it's fairly standard? Yes, I might still like my post-punk/emo bands, and have thing for nuclear post-apocalyptic fiction but I don't think I'm that unique.

Yes, I'm a mother too and I don't like talking about my DC beyond a passing comment. I've basically gone NC with most of my family (apart from my DM), and have no relationship with my in-laws. Some of it is by design, some of it is just life.

I miss my two long-life friends. We've been friends for 20+ years, but given the distance I only see them maybe once every other year.

I think I'm kind and can be fun, but still haven't found anyone to have fun with.

OP posts:
Waterboatlass · 13/11/2024 11:10

No the birthday was pushy and I wouldn't have liked having to say 'no' twice but it required clarity. You didn't have to accept.

I totally get you, don't get me wrong on that, it's clear youre not a match for besties as it would be exhausting just being yourself and you want your close friends just to understand you, even if they're very different. I also am more along the lines of wanting to do more rather than less to help and am absolutely not forensic over bills in the way they are and these things read as quite churlish.

She's reminding me a bit of a long term friend whom I've questioned at times. She's got her great points though, she won't be getting ditched but my expectations have been tailored pretty sharply around her past behaviour and I won't be putting myself out for her again (unless it's an emergency which I doubt will happen as we live some distance away and she has family nearby).

I also get wanting periods of solitude.

But I think this is a good reflection opportunity rather than going back to 'shes a wrongun, I've been badly done to'.

If you posted in a meetup group that includes her then you were addressing her as much as the others. There is no reason she should assume otherwise . If you didn't want to include her, you should have started another group. She's not perfect but she's not a mind reader either.

Obv cut her off if you want but you mentioned not wanting to lose friends and it's quite clear why friendships are stressful for you so this will probably happen again. You have to express boundaries clearly, not implicitly. You can say a clear 'no thank you' politely but without brooking any argument.

Chattenoire · 13/11/2024 09:07

Waterboatlass · 13/11/2024 08:47

Ok but it isn't them that have upset your dog, cat or neighbours, that is most definitely you.

Husband needed to be clearer re bills.

I get it about the dog, cat, neighbours, that was on me (although I wish they had told me about what they knew about our dog, rather than just let it happen again). I just wished they had told me.

The bills, yes husband could have been clearer, but it was super obvious the bill was substantially lower and they made no comment about it.

But my birthday? Ignoring my wishes and doing something they know I really dislike?

Yes, I should have said a clear NO, but she wouldn't take my attempts of soft negatives .

Then I posted in another local meetup group about finding people to work together in a shared office type of thing. She's part of that group and she tagged herself into the conversation. There's a reason why I didn't ask her first, but she definitely ignores subtleties. So if I try to organise ever again, I either have to block her or tell her that I want to expand my circle without her being part of it.

OP posts:
Waterboatlass · 13/11/2024 08:47

Ok but it isn't them that have upset your dog, cat or neighbours, that is most definitely you.

Husband needed to be clearer re bills.

Chattenoire · 12/11/2024 21:01

TammyJones · 12/11/2024 20:40

Yes this friendship has run its course.
(It's upset:
Your Dog
Your Cat
Your Neighbours
Your husband
Your other good friends
And your good self. )
The friendship is over.

LOL basically!

At least my other good friends have only ever upset these friends!

Plus my other good friends are well liked by our DC, which is always a bonus!

OP posts:
TammyJones · 12/11/2024 20:40

Yes this friendship has run its course.
(It's upset:
Your Dog
Your Cat
Your Neighbours
Your husband
Your other good friends
And your good self. )
The friendship is over.

Chattenoire · 12/11/2024 18:54

Waterboatlass · 12/11/2024 18:24

What would you do differently for any of these things mentioned, for your part? If they happened again?

I think I'd just say very clearly that to me that's no "treat" no matter how well intentioned.

OP posts:
Waterboatlass · 12/11/2024 18:24

What would you do differently for any of these things mentioned, for your part? If they happened again?

Chattenoire · 12/11/2024 17:39

The birthday thing was the worst because I ended up hosting something that I really had no intention nor interest in and that I did try in the kindest of ways to avoid.

OP posts:
Chattenoire · 12/11/2024 17:33

LadyQuackBeth · 12/11/2024 17:29

I think you need to take this as a lesson to deal better with minor irritations as otherwise they grow into grudges. It is you who suffers from losing friends and giving up so much headspace to people making tiny missteps or not quite aligning with what you think.

These are all very little things around communication, not saying you'd paid your bill for example, which was confusion rather than sneaky. It doesn't sound like you suggested anything you would like to do for your birthday either, the cooking/football thing sounds like someone trying but getting it slightly wrong, who would probably welcome some more input from you. Not criticism after the fact, but in the planning stage.

The whole birthday saga was MONTHS in the making. I said at the very least five times that she didn't have to, and that I'd rather go out or leave it for another occasion.

I even actually said that my birthday celebration was going away and that I actively planned it that way to just celebrate with DH and our DC.

I even said, if I really wanted to see people I could have organised something, but I didn't for a reason. It all fell in deaf ears.

OP posts:
LadyQuackBeth · 12/11/2024 17:29

I think you need to take this as a lesson to deal better with minor irritations as otherwise they grow into grudges. It is you who suffers from losing friends and giving up so much headspace to people making tiny missteps or not quite aligning with what you think.

These are all very little things around communication, not saying you'd paid your bill for example, which was confusion rather than sneaky. It doesn't sound like you suggested anything you would like to do for your birthday either, the cooking/football thing sounds like someone trying but getting it slightly wrong, who would probably welcome some more input from you. Not criticism after the fact, but in the planning stage.

Chattenoire · 12/11/2024 17:18

Waterboatlass · 12/11/2024 16:20

You sound really generous and well meaning so don't take this the wrong way.

I just think your boundaries are off and the pleasure you get from doing more for people obstructs your own interests. You then come to resent this somewhat when it's not reciprocated, it seems. Your friend is very different. She seems willing to help but within the bounds of what she wants to offer. Even if it's not quite what you, the recipient, would choose. It's quite interesting, the difference.

And I see your point about reporting back re DDog. However, they might have thought it was a normal part of a family dog unused to being left alone rather than serious distress whereas the neighbour heard ongoing barking and crying.
It was really for you to weigh up whether to leave him, not for them to provide more care than they'd offered (it wasn't an emergency. Obviously I would expect them to do more if it was).

Also if your cat was unused to another dog in the house, it was for you to decide whether that was in its best interests to introduce one rather than be giving at any cost.

I get that you feel you did more caring but at what cost and was it really the best all round solution? Id have a think about this and reflect on approaches rather than pushing them away as yes, they sound a bit self interested but people like that can be ok if you have good boundaries and don't get too intertwined. It's like I say, you don't have to be best friends but you don't need to burn bridges

That's kind of what my DH told me. They're good to have "good fun" but you'll never be intimate friends with them.

After thinking we'd never see our cat again, we decided to simply never look after their dog again, our cat came first.

I also didn't really like that they heavily criticised our other good friends. Coincidentally it was mutual, but our other good friends took 2 full years to say that they didn't really like them whereas the ones I've been posting about mentioned it within months.

I learned my lesson there and never mixed them again.

OP posts:
Waterboatlass · 12/11/2024 16:20

You sound really generous and well meaning so don't take this the wrong way.

I just think your boundaries are off and the pleasure you get from doing more for people obstructs your own interests. You then come to resent this somewhat when it's not reciprocated, it seems. Your friend is very different. She seems willing to help but within the bounds of what she wants to offer. Even if it's not quite what you, the recipient, would choose. It's quite interesting, the difference.

And I see your point about reporting back re DDog. However, they might have thought it was a normal part of a family dog unused to being left alone rather than serious distress whereas the neighbour heard ongoing barking and crying.
It was really for you to weigh up whether to leave him, not for them to provide more care than they'd offered (it wasn't an emergency. Obviously I would expect them to do more if it was).

Also if your cat was unused to another dog in the house, it was for you to decide whether that was in its best interests to introduce one rather than be giving at any cost.

I get that you feel you did more caring but at what cost and was it really the best all round solution? Id have a think about this and reflect on approaches rather than pushing them away as yes, they sound a bit self interested but people like that can be ok if you have good boundaries and don't get too intertwined. It's like I say, you don't have to be best friends but you don't need to burn bridges

Chattenoire · 12/11/2024 15:04

TH1NG1E · 12/11/2024 14:55

They were doing you a favour with the dog, you sound a tad ungrateful. However I'd never dream of leaving my dog with someone just checking in!

We also looked after their dog even though our cat got extremely distressed, so I don't think we were particularly ungrateful!

OP posts: