Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Iraq to lower the ‘age of consent’ for girls to nine

485 replies

Waitingforfriday75 · 09/11/2024 07:35

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/women-and-girls/iraq-poised-to-lower-the-age-of-consent-for-girls-to-nine/

Posted here as it gets the most traffic. This is by far the worst news I’ve heard all year. Imagine at the age you were meant to start secondary school instead being forced to marry and have sex with an older man. Completely disgusting!!!

Iraq to lower the ‘age of consent’ for girls to nine

A new law proposed by ultra conservative Shia Muslim parties seeks to strip women and girls of their rights

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/women-and-girls/iraq-poised-to-lower-the-age-of-consent-for-girls-to-nine

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
Justiceeternal · 13/11/2024 13:53

DucklingSwimmingInstructress · 13/11/2024 09:04

Why do you hate Muslims so much?

You are projecting significantly. I don't. I hate it when people who push an agenda against one set of people - when they foment distortions and make situations much worse rather than better.

Fortunately by now I think most reasoned people can see that what Israel is doing is absolutely terrible, and can also see that a lot of the pro-Hamas movement are trying to make things worse, and that people who speak like you are trying to stir hatred without balance.

I agree. That is why I spoke up when Muslims were being demonised.

DucklingSwimmingInstructress · 13/11/2024 09:51

Justiceeternal · 13/11/2024 07:03

Jews, Christians, Muslims lived together peacefully in the Arab states for generations! Tell me more - I can’t find this on Google?

Deary deary me, you really didn't look far did you? Or at all

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_antisemitism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_antisemitism_in_the_19th_century
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_antisemitism_in_the_20th_century

People who are Jewish have been persecuted endlessly, first from the Christian side (after Christianity began), which has continued pretty well non-stop. The majority of attacks on Jewish people have been from 'Christians'.

However after Islam was founded, there have been a number of mass killings of Jews by Muslim leaders and countries.

I suggest you look at this line: ^1948–2001
Antisemitism played a central role in the Jewish exodus from Arab lands. The Jewish population in the Arab Middle East and North Africa has decreased from 900,000 in 1948 to less than 8,000 in 2001^ There were a lot of attacks in the 1940's and some later, plus of course the fact that some Arab nations tried to erase Israel by attacking it.

Now the vast majority of the Wiki pages emphasise that most prejudice and attacks have been carried out by Western people and entities. However, mass murders of Jewish people have been carried out by Arabs too.

Tell me, can you bring yoruself to condemn the absolute horrors of Hamas' attack on October 7?

Timeline of antisemitism - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_antisemitism

DucklingSwimmingInstructress · 13/11/2024 09:04

Why do you hate Muslims so much?

You are projecting significantly. I don't. I hate it when people who push an agenda against one set of people - when they foment distortions and make situations much worse rather than better.

Fortunately by now I think most reasoned people can see that what Israel is doing is absolutely terrible, and can also see that a lot of the pro-Hamas movement are trying to make things worse, and that people who speak like you are trying to stir hatred without balance.

Justiceeternal · 13/11/2024 07:03

BabyEl · 13/11/2024 06:15

You clearly spent too much time on TikTok!

genocide? Where! The only genocide here is the one that Arab states carried out on the Jewish populations.

Jews, Christians, Muslims lived together peacefully in the Arab states for generations! Tell me more - I can’t find this on Google?

Scirocco · 13/11/2024 07:02

BabyEl · 13/11/2024 06:15

You clearly spent too much time on TikTok!

genocide? Where! The only genocide here is the one that Arab states carried out on the Jewish populations.

Actually, many internationally respected experts consider that the actions of Israel in Palestine constitute genocidal acts with genocidal intent, including Professor Bartov of Brown University.

Not sure how a discussion about child marriage laws in Iraq ended up as yet another thread about the Israel-Palestine-Lebanon conflict, but here we are.

BabyEl · 13/11/2024 06:15

Justiceeternal · 12/11/2024 19:07

To quote a Tiktocker: ‘Nobody cares that you are Jewish, sweetheart’. We only care about ISRAEL currently committing a genocide! I would add that we do notice all the people who show a depraved indifference to the suffering of the people in Palestine and Lebanon too. It’s a great filter.

Edited

You clearly spent too much time on TikTok!

genocide? Where! The only genocide here is the one that Arab states carried out on the Jewish populations.

Justiceeternal · 12/11/2024 23:53

Justiceeternal · 12/11/2024 23:36

Do you know me? How do you know I haven’t? You show your ignorance repeatedly. Why do you hate Muslims so much? Criticising a country for committing a genocide is a human beings duty. All people with empathy, compassion and a strong moral compass will call out all genocides occurring in the world right now and doing some action to protest them. It is our duty. We are a community and should care for one another no matter what race, religion or minority you are. From things you have said in this chat I don’t think you feel the same way. You would only care if I looked like you right?
Further, why do you believe Israel should be held to a different standard than any other country? Why is criticising Israel anti-Semitic? If someone criticised UAE for Sudan, Saudia Arabia for Yemen I wouldn’t consider them islamophobic unless they were using those things to dehumanise all muslims.

Edited

I know the anti-semitism label has been used as a weapon to cancel people and silence them. Why is that necessary? If truth and justice is on your side why limit the flow of information?

Justiceeternal · 12/11/2024 23:36

DucklingSwimmingInstructress · 12/11/2024 22:13

I still don't get why you hate Israel so much when Assad killed hundreds of thousands more people. Shouldn't you be pushing action against him a great deal more?

Given the general tenor of your posts throughout this thread and the absolute lack of acknowledgement of the worse atrocities committed by Assad, it's impossible to think of your posts as anything other than anti-Semite and pushing an agenda of hate.

If you were posting in anything like good faith you'd have a sense of proportion.

Do you know me? How do you know I haven’t? You show your ignorance repeatedly. Why do you hate Muslims so much? Criticising a country for committing a genocide is a human beings duty. All people with empathy, compassion and a strong moral compass will call out all genocides occurring in the world right now and doing some action to protest them. It is our duty. We are a community and should care for one another no matter what race, religion or minority you are. From things you have said in this chat I don’t think you feel the same way. You would only care if I looked like you right?
Further, why do you believe Israel should be held to a different standard than any other country? Why is criticising Israel anti-Semitic? If someone criticised UAE for Sudan, Saudia Arabia for Yemen I wouldn’t consider them islamophobic unless they were using those things to dehumanise all muslims.

DucklingSwimmingInstructress · 12/11/2024 22:14

@Fizzle1 Thank you for your considered and very interesting posts.

DucklingSwimmingInstructress · 12/11/2024 22:13

Justiceeternal · 12/11/2024 18:43

I’ve been thinking about your deleted post where you shared your fears of Muslims. I would like to share my fears too. I am afraid that Israel will keep killing men, women and children in Palestine and Lebanon until they are exterminated. It’s is currently happening right now. I am afraid that Israel will keep expanding their border for their announced intention of a Greater Israel thereby killing even more people. I am afraid that Israel will keep provoking Nuclear power countries and it’ll escalate to World War 3 and possible nuclear disaster for everyone. This is a very real possibility.

I still don't get why you hate Israel so much when Assad killed hundreds of thousands more people. Shouldn't you be pushing action against him a great deal more?

Given the general tenor of your posts throughout this thread and the absolute lack of acknowledgement of the worse atrocities committed by Assad, it's impossible to think of your posts as anything other than anti-Semite and pushing an agenda of hate.

If you were posting in anything like good faith you'd have a sense of proportion.

Justiceeternal · 12/11/2024 19:07

BabyEl · 12/11/2024 15:01

So you can trust Jews who are against the war and all the other Jews are bad Jews is that right?

all the right thinking Jews agree with you?

To quote a Tiktocker: ‘Nobody cares that you are Jewish, sweetheart’. We only care about ISRAEL currently committing a genocide! I would add that we do notice all the people who show a depraved indifference to the suffering of the people in Palestine and Lebanon too. It’s a great filter.

Justiceeternal · 12/11/2024 18:43

wrongthinker · 12/11/2024 15:12

people in a European community going around saying “oh Muslims are terrorists” or “Islam and Hamas are the same thing” then more people in the community start agreeing with that person and think “yeah you’re right - I don’t really feel comfortable around them” then people within the community without thinking about it start to isolate Muslims, perhaps young Muslims feel ashamed and struggle with their identity, they feel “othered” from their current society - it creates vulnerability and then someone with horrible intentions comes along and says “you don’t have to put up with that, why don’t to listen to some of my things I think it would help you” then a young person starts to be radicalised. It’s a process that takes years of course.

Okay, well a) sounds like nonsense to me. I don't think you could get most people thinking that they should go and behead some people because some other people were mean to them, so I think this is over simplified at best. And b) even if that's true, I never said anything like your examples, so blaming me for creating terrorism is absolutely out of pocket.

I’ve been thinking about your deleted post where you shared your fears of Muslims. I would like to share my fears too. I am afraid that Israel will keep killing men, women and children in Palestine and Lebanon until they are exterminated. It’s is currently happening right now. I am afraid that Israel will keep expanding their border for their announced intention of a Greater Israel thereby killing even more people. I am afraid that Israel will keep provoking Nuclear power countries and it’ll escalate to World War 3 and possible nuclear disaster for everyone. This is a very real possibility.

Scirocco · 12/11/2024 17:25

wrongthinker · 12/11/2024 15:12

people in a European community going around saying “oh Muslims are terrorists” or “Islam and Hamas are the same thing” then more people in the community start agreeing with that person and think “yeah you’re right - I don’t really feel comfortable around them” then people within the community without thinking about it start to isolate Muslims, perhaps young Muslims feel ashamed and struggle with their identity, they feel “othered” from their current society - it creates vulnerability and then someone with horrible intentions comes along and says “you don’t have to put up with that, why don’t to listen to some of my things I think it would help you” then a young person starts to be radicalised. It’s a process that takes years of course.

Okay, well a) sounds like nonsense to me. I don't think you could get most people thinking that they should go and behead some people because some other people were mean to them, so I think this is over simplified at best. And b) even if that's true, I never said anything like your examples, so blaming me for creating terrorism is absolutely out of pocket.

Well, if it sounds like nonsense, you'd probably be very disappointed to learn that it's a well-researched and widely recognised phenomenon as per international counter-terrorism, de-radicalisation and re-integration experts. Isolation, exclusion and marginalisation can set the scene for vulnerability to radicalisation.

AnotherChildFreeCatLady · 12/11/2024 16:04

EasternStandard · 12/11/2024 15:19

To what extent do those passages resonate today?

With the fundamentalists? Quite a lot I would say, just like with the quran. Don't you see all of the idiots in America opposing gay marriage or abortion, simply bc of some outdated passage in the bible and haven't you seen the affect it has had on people?

My point was simply that grabbing some texts from a religious book and saying "look how violent", can be applied to any and all regions. Religion is a virus, and all of them are EQUALLY horrible.

Lentilweaver · 12/11/2024 15:37

If you ever have time @Fizzle1 I would love an AMA on your life and work.

Fizzle1 · 12/11/2024 15:34

wrongthinker · 12/11/2024 15:16

you responded specifically saying that you did identify as Islamophobic - you later corrected within our dialogue that you were fearful of extremism - which is a perfectly valid fear and I’m glad you made that clarification.

I actually made that distinction clear in my original post.

In which case, as is the beauty of the internet and the debate process, we will agree to disagree on that point.

Fizzle1 · 12/11/2024 15:33

wrongthinker · 12/11/2024 15:12

people in a European community going around saying “oh Muslims are terrorists” or “Islam and Hamas are the same thing” then more people in the community start agreeing with that person and think “yeah you’re right - I don’t really feel comfortable around them” then people within the community without thinking about it start to isolate Muslims, perhaps young Muslims feel ashamed and struggle with their identity, they feel “othered” from their current society - it creates vulnerability and then someone with horrible intentions comes along and says “you don’t have to put up with that, why don’t to listen to some of my things I think it would help you” then a young person starts to be radicalised. It’s a process that takes years of course.

Okay, well a) sounds like nonsense to me. I don't think you could get most people thinking that they should go and behead some people because some other people were mean to them, so I think this is over simplified at best. And b) even if that's true, I never said anything like your examples, so blaming me for creating terrorism is absolutely out of pocket.

Fair enough, you can think it’s nonsense if you like, you’re not a reintegration specialist working with people associated with armed groups.

Although just to highlight, it’s not someone being “mean” to someone, so they decide to pop of to Syria and chop someones head off as yes I agree that would be absolutely ridiculous!

What I explained is the beginnings of a systematic process of exclusion, and can be really effectively tackled at the community level. There’s actually a really good Netflix show from Sweden that captures this process well if you’re interested it’s called Caliphate (based on the Bethnal Green trio) but it’s done really well I thought, and follows the story as the lead actress is radicalised and decides to join ISIS.

Nobody said you stated anything like in the example, or blamed you personally for creating terrorism, which also I agree would be ridiculous as I doubt anyone on mumsnet is single handedly creating terrorism. The example is from one of my home countries in Europe and nothing to do with you, as I don’t know you.

EasternStandard · 12/11/2024 15:19

AnotherChildFreeCatLady · 12/11/2024 11:26

Have you ever read the Bible? There's a whole lot of hatred and torture in there too. ALL of these books were written by men to subjugate and control other people, predominantly women. ALL of them should be treated as such.

To what extent do those passages resonate today?

wrongthinker · 12/11/2024 15:16

you responded specifically saying that you did identify as Islamophobic - you later corrected within our dialogue that you were fearful of extremism - which is a perfectly valid fear and I’m glad you made that clarification.

I actually made that distinction clear in my original post.

wrongthinker · 12/11/2024 15:12

people in a European community going around saying “oh Muslims are terrorists” or “Islam and Hamas are the same thing” then more people in the community start agreeing with that person and think “yeah you’re right - I don’t really feel comfortable around them” then people within the community without thinking about it start to isolate Muslims, perhaps young Muslims feel ashamed and struggle with their identity, they feel “othered” from their current society - it creates vulnerability and then someone with horrible intentions comes along and says “you don’t have to put up with that, why don’t to listen to some of my things I think it would help you” then a young person starts to be radicalised. It’s a process that takes years of course.

Okay, well a) sounds like nonsense to me. I don't think you could get most people thinking that they should go and behead some people because some other people were mean to them, so I think this is over simplified at best. And b) even if that's true, I never said anything like your examples, so blaming me for creating terrorism is absolutely out of pocket.

BabyEl · 12/11/2024 15:01

Rosscameasdoody · 11/11/2024 08:45

That’s not what this poster said. She didn’t say ‘the Jews can’t be trusted’ she said the state of Israel as an actor in this conflict can’t be trusted. It’s not the same thing at all. So many Jewish people are appalled at what Israel is doing, but you’re probably not aware of that because it doesn’t fit your inflammatory and inaccurate narrative.

So you can trust Jews who are against the war and all the other Jews are bad Jews is that right?

all the right thinking Jews agree with you?

Fizzle1 · 12/11/2024 12:02

wrongthinker · 12/11/2024 10:27

the number 1 thing (especially in non muslimcountries) that create a fertile ground for this type of extremism are the types of generalised comments that you made previously - which is why it’s so important those comments are corrected.

Sorry, what? It's comments that cause terrorist attacks? Not grooming/abuse/extreme ideology/promises of glory? But people making comments about how terrorism is scary?

Forgive me for my scepticism but this does not sound remotely true.

Well of course it isn’t as simple
as that -its about the wider community and environment, which then leads to the ability of individuals to groom others and create a ground for extremism to spread. Which starts at the community level and calling out and removing low level generalisation and “othering” of communities.

No not saying “terrorism is scary” - that would be silly, but for example - people in a European community going around saying “oh Muslims are terrorists” or “Islam and Hamas are the same thing” then more people in the community start agreeing with that person and think “yeah you’re right - I don’t really feel comfortable around them” then people within the community without thinking about it start to isolate Muslims, perhaps young Muslims feel ashamed and struggle with their identity, they feel “othered” from their current society - it creates vulnerability and then someone with horrible intentions comes along and says “you don’t have to put up with that, why don’t to listen to some of my things I think it would help you” then a young person starts to be radicalised. It’s a process that takes years of course.

Its’s the first step of the cycle, take for example, Iraq, and the creation of ISIS. So as I’ve mentioned before, in Iraq we have important tribal and religious structures - so America invaded and dismantled the previous governance structure (which favoured the Sunni minority under Saddam) - now with considerable support from America and their allies, a Shia majority governance structure was put in place. In a governorate called Anbar, which was already quite poor and lacking services, ISIS were able to take considerable control by capitalising on discrimination and marginalisation of the Sunni minority. Many Sunni’s faced discrimination on some sectors of Iraq as kind of “pay back” for the way Saddam treated people during his reign, they did not have access to basic services, they were marginalised, and “othered” by a lot of Shia majority (who themselves had been massively discriminated against under Saddam’s regime) they were fed up of being treated badly and were vulnerable- and a fertile ground was created for someone to come along with false promises, to tell them “if you follow me we can protect your family, we can make sure you have money, we can make sure those people who have been blaming you can’t do this anymore” and then over time ISIS leaders were able to groom and basically brainwash vulnerable Iraqis and others to thinking they were the only ones who could make things better for them.

So as I mentioned in my previous post, if we can take away and stop that initial step, of “othering” by being inclusive with our language, making sure minorities are included in society - it can go a long way to removing the building blocks of extremism. And the generalised comments about Islam, while on their own probably seem really silly to us, they can build and build to create these levels of discrimination - so at the basic community level we can all take actions to call out these generalised comments to stop the process before it starts.

AnotherChildFreeCatLady · 12/11/2024 11:26

EasternStandard · 11/11/2024 19:38

I appreciate those who are offering insight and I'm wondering about this post, if anyone would like to say more

Have you ever read the Bible? There's a whole lot of hatred and torture in there too. ALL of these books were written by men to subjugate and control other people, predominantly women. ALL of them should be treated as such.

JusteanBiscuits · 12/11/2024 11:20

Are you outraged by the states in the USA where this is legal? Are you outraged by the child marriages in the US? Or only in Muslim countries?

Fizzle1 · 12/11/2024 11:13

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Respectfully, I didn’t make your use of those words - although thank you for clarifying your context.

A poster before your removed comment asked you if you would feel as horrified as being called Islamophobic as you would for being called antisemitic and you responded specifically saying that you did identify as Islamophobic - you later corrected within our dialogue that you were fearful of extremism - which is a perfectly valid fear and I’m glad you made that clarification.

And you also specifically said you saw this as Islam vs the west in relation to the current conflict in Gaza, which is why in my original response to you I said I disagreed with you that this conflict should be viewed that way.

I am glad to read your follow up statements, and you’ve clarified that you do not believe in hatred or discrimination, more you are fearful of Hamas as an actor in this conflict.

And while the use of those words were not the reason for the removal of the post as confirmed in the above reply, I didn’t make up that you used them in the deleted post.