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Private Schools- hear me out before you judge!

334 replies

Silverbook · 08/11/2024 13:01

I'm a state school teacher in Scotland. Class sizes are - 25 for P1, 30 for P2-3 and 33 for P4-7. I currently have a class size of 25, most classes in the school are 25-28. Relatively small town- 2 primaries, 1 independent and 1 secondary. The next nearest independent is 45 mins away.

The local independent school is closing due to VAT, the pupils are largely coming here. This is pushing all our class sizes up. No extra funding or staff, obviously. My issue with independent schools closing is that is directly impacting the state sector and no extra funding, resources or infrastructure is in place to support it.

Yes, our classes are still within legal limits but it will always be the most disadvantaged children/those with greater need of support who are impacted most by larger class sizes as there is just less time to spend with them.

I really feel this has been a poorly thought through and knee jerk policy. Surely you invest and create capacity in existing resources before increasing pupil numbers?

OP posts:
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StandingSideBySide · 09/11/2024 14:03

There have been a lot of news articles re private schools closing.
I would have thought / liked Labour to have analysed the impact this would have on State schools.
I would have thought / liked Labour to have assessed the impact on Indi kids too.

Clearly that is not the case and it seems no one seems to really know whether this will raise any money at all!

twistyizzy · 09/11/2024 14:01

IF your child can get a place! 100s of LAs saying 0 spaces. This is 1 example

Private Schools- hear me out before you judge!
Heatherbell1978 · 09/11/2024 13:59

@TheYearOfSmallThings where are you getting your information from? In Scotland we're already whacked for tax, more than England, and many parents can't manage yet another tax to pay for a service they don't use. Fees tend to be less in Scotland which is why there are many children in private school. But it doesn't mean the parents have particularly broad shoulders.

TheYearOfSmallThings · 09/11/2024 13:57

twistyizzy · 09/11/2024 13:52

Exactly yet they are the victims

Speaking as one such "victim" (admittedly decades back) it was absolutely fine. One school closed, we went to another, both were lovely. Private schools close sometimes - they always have.

lasagnelle · 09/11/2024 13:56

twistyizzy · 09/11/2024 13:52

Exactly yet they are the victims

We're on the same page

Heatherbell1978 · 09/11/2024 13:55

@Arran2024 Based on what? The private schools in Edinburgh have already seen huge reductions in people applying and all of the state schools are full. I don't doubt parents will struggle through the next couple of years if kids are doing exams. But what happens in the years to come when the already full state schools are expected to take the kids who would have otherwise used private schools?

twistyizzy · 09/11/2024 13:54

Arran2024 · 09/11/2024 13:52

Yes, Edinburgh is the outlier. The rest of Scotland is relatively unaffected. And I bet most of those children in Edinburgh get to stay on in their private schools. In Surrey 25% go to private schools. Again most will keep their places.

Are you joking?! Why do you think there is a legal case being brought specific to Scotland? Because simply put, parents can't afford the tax and the impact will be especially strong in Scotland

Parry5timesbeforedeath · 09/11/2024 13:54

EBearhug · 09/11/2024 12:11

This policy was always ideologically based, and the sums don't really add up. Where privilege is really an issue is with the top public schools, and they aren't really going to be affected - yes, they might lose a handful (but I assume they do every year, as people's circumstances can change,) but they'll have others on their waiting lists, and they're operating in an international market. If you're paying £45K a year for your child to go to school, you were never going to be looking at state schools, just slightly cheaper private schools.

Whereas the small, local day schools, where parents have sent children because they weren't getting on in the state sector, where parents struggle to pay the fees, where they probably aren't adding much privilege, they're the schools which will ho yo the wall.

Longer term, it's right that a lot of those children should be catered for in the state sector, but that requires funding, which isn't currently there, and I any case, many issues in state schools can't be fixed overnight and just with extra funding. Adding extra pupils (which will affect some schools more than others, simply due to the geographical distribution of schools,) without funding won't improve anything.

It also seems an odd decision to me to bring it in in the middle of the school year, when September would be the obvious time. It was obvious this would lead to pupils moving schools, and having to do that mid year isn't helpful to anyone.

The Labour govt said they would bring this policy in for the start of the academic year 2025. They lied. It's now January in the middle of the school year as you say. I believe very very firmly they did this because it is a very great deal more difficult for parents to change schools mid-year and so they are cynically and knowingly trying to skew the figures. 'See, barely any attrition rate from the private sector'.

In our school the school waived the one term's notice and one term's fees and we have lost on average 2 children per class. Already. My closest mum friend who is a solicitor and her DH a GP have taken their children out. The one with SEN will now be homeschooled. She has quit her job to do so. So the government has lost the tax on her salary. The government now has to fund the 2 placements for the two who are going to state. That is one example. One.

Ideologies based on spite tend to be expensive, it turns out.

StandingSideBySide · 09/11/2024 13:54

BaleOfHay · 08/11/2024 15:33

Fully agree. My school announced it was closing in April last night.

So sad to hear that. I hope your children settle into another school smoothly.

TheYearOfSmallThings · 09/11/2024 13:53

Heatherbell1978 · 09/11/2024 13:35

21% of children in Edinburgh go to a private school.

And Edinburgh is prosperous enough to support lots of private schools. If one closes (and it won't be due to VAT alone) there will be plenty of private options available, and it won't be a problem.

Arran2024 · 09/11/2024 13:52

Heatherbell1978 · 09/11/2024 13:35

21% of children in Edinburgh go to a private school.

Yes, Edinburgh is the outlier. The rest of Scotland is relatively unaffected. And I bet most of those children in Edinburgh get to stay on in their private schools. In Surrey 25% go to private schools. Again most will keep their places.

twistyizzy · 09/11/2024 13:52

lasagnelle · 09/11/2024 13:46

Doesn't mean they aren't entitled to it does it. The system is crap and can't handle all the children it needs to. But that isn't the children's fault

Exactly yet they are the victims

30percent · 09/11/2024 13:51

InformEducateEntertain · 08/11/2024 13:52

Surely each additional pupil comes with funding. That's how it works in England.

I believe most funding comes from the poorer children it's called pupil premium, when our DC started school we were told to apply for it even though meals are free for everyone till year 3 because the school gets more funding. If they were previously going to private school they won't be poor.

Hopefully your school is able to adapt to this op we had to have an extra class fr one year group a few years back because so many children were born in 2013. A porta cabin type thing.

lasagnelle · 09/11/2024 13:46

twistyizzy · 09/11/2024 13:44

Not true though as 1000s are being told 0 spaces. This is just 1 such example for 1 family. There are 1000 more examples

Doesn't mean they aren't entitled to it does it. The system is crap and can't handle all the children it needs to. But that isn't the children's fault

lasagnelle · 09/11/2024 13:45

twistyizzy · 09/11/2024 13:42

Note you said free, not good.

I do note I said that. At the moment there isn't a free good education available

twistyizzy · 09/11/2024 13:44

lasagnelle · 09/11/2024 13:41

Awful isn't it. Every child is entitled to a free education

Not true though as 1000s are being told 0 spaces. This is just 1 such example for 1 family. There are 1000 more examples

Private Schools- hear me out before you judge!
lasagnelle · 09/11/2024 13:44

MugPlate · 09/11/2024 12:48

Would the private school parents be open to volunteering in the classrooms? Or perhaps the PTA could do with some fundraising events?

Weird to read comments mocking your concerns for the other children.

Do the current children's parents volunteer in the classroom? You're making out like it's private kid's parents job to fix this. It isn't.

twistyizzy · 09/11/2024 13:42

lasagnelle · 09/11/2024 13:41

Awful isn't it. Every child is entitled to a free education

Note you said free, not good.

lasagnelle · 09/11/2024 13:41

Another76543 · 09/11/2024 12:13

I feel sorry for the children who have to switch as well. A lot of state school teachers are very vocal about their hatred of the private system.

Awful isn't it. Every child is entitled to a free education

Heatherbell1978 · 09/11/2024 13:35

Arran2024 · 09/11/2024 12:47

There are few private schools in Scotland. Presumably only a few state schools will be affected. Where I come from in north Ayrshire I can guarantee thee local comp isn't going to be affected.

21% of children in Edinburgh go to a private school.

Willyoujustbequiet · 09/11/2024 12:52

Yolo12345 · 09/11/2024 09:39

I don't think they are just closing due to VAT.

Brexit has pushed up prices for everything

Staffing is problematic

Parents are increasingly demanding

They are not making the profits they once were...

They could choose to fundraise and offset some of the rising costs but of course thst would be a lot of work

Exactly this.

The vat is just a convenient excuse for what in some cases is simply poor management.

MugPlate · 09/11/2024 12:48

Would the private school parents be open to volunteering in the classrooms? Or perhaps the PTA could do with some fundraising events?

Weird to read comments mocking your concerns for the other children.

Arran2024 · 09/11/2024 12:47

There are few private schools in Scotland. Presumably only a few state schools will be affected. Where I come from in north Ayrshire I can guarantee thee local comp isn't going to be affected.

valueyourself · 09/11/2024 12:44

@Another76543

So you actually believe that private school BUSINESSES (because that is what they are) Leave their forward until the first day of next years Autumn term . ?

Those taking their kids out needed to notify by September. In order not to pay fees in January.

Additionally. The OPs post about the Scottish primary closing 'due to fees' is also disingenuous.

www.heraldscotland.com/opinion/24522524.closure-two-private-schools-something-worry/

TheYearOfSmallThings · 09/11/2024 12:19

lasagnelle · 09/11/2024 12:11

I feel sorry for the kids who've had to move schools - sounds like the teachers clearly resent their very presence

Oh don't worry, it will all settle in. My private primary school closed in the 1980s (not VAT, just dwindling numbers) and most of us swamped into the local national (state) school. It must have been a challenge but they were awesome and we never felt unwelcome.