To think I can’t control my child

I’m not totally sure how much he understands to be honest either.

There's your answer. If his comprehension is limited, he can't possibly understand what he is supposed to do, why he is supposed to do it, why he is being prevented from doing what he likes, why his favourite things are being removed as punishment, how his behaviour is connected to your displeasure, etc.

I would look into physical problems (hearing issues) as a matter of urgency. I'd also try to help him develop his comprehension skills. Keep instructions limited, single words or short phrases. Show him pictures to support the spoken word. Make life very predictable with an invariable routine he can count on. Reinforce what you do at each point in the day. Of course, you can't always foresee what will happen on any given day. But it can provide security for him to know what a typical day looks like. That should help him with comprehension, especially if you narrate what is happening, using the same words to describe what is expected.

@abangintoon

So for the incident at the park, if he deliberately walked over that painting, I would apologize immediately to the child and the parent if appropriate, and remove him immediately to the car/bench to sit and think about his behavior. If he does something else naughty, then you go straight home.

You say you can't always physically stop him. I disagree. Unless you are unusually frail or he is unusually strong you can absolutely physically stop and restrain a child of this age and you must, before he gets too big that his behavior becomes really unmanageable.

All of this!!

They really don't. I've been consistent and calm for years and my DC still gives zero fucks.

If I threaten to take things away they care about they also spiral into a huge anxiety driven meltdown, so I have that to deal with on top. It's not great

Oh and mine also treads on everything! Drives me mad!

Solidarity OP my DC is like this and he's twice your boys age.

He's still like it, most of the time, I'm afraid.

It's been hard. Really hard at times. Especially the tantrums / meltdowns which are ongoing.

My other DC is fine - helpful, does stuff when asked most of the time.

Both are ND. I'm sure that doesn't help.

We are looking at professional help as we've run out of things to try, frankly. The only time he is happy is when he's in complete control.

If he genuinely isn't understanding the consequences then surely this would have been picked up at school/nursery? Because it would be a bigger picture of not understanding things.

You've had good advice OP but it boils down to if your child is NT then typical regimes of reward and appropriate chastisement will work eventually as he matures and develops understanding.
If your child is ND they won't. But constantly being corrected and told off will in itself set patterns of feeling not good enough and defiance.
My DD is autistic. Not assessed until late teens, high achieving, good school attendance, excellent behaviour. Still autistic.
We have a very low demand household simply because that's how we are. I suspect she's actually very demand avoidant but home rarely triggers it and she's very good at following rules.
You sound like good parents with a very demanding child. Low demand parenting might work but I would agree that a lot of the behaviour you're seeing is sensory seeking rather than naughty. Approach it differently and see if you get different results. Humour, deflection and anticipation have been useful to me in parenting mine. I wish I'd known more about this sooner. My DD is sensory seeking with her feet a lot and needs to move around to dissipate intense feelings. She has behaviours that are probably stims and derives a lot of comfort from them. I'd suggest to find ways for your DS to meet these needs that are less destructive but equally rewarding for him.

Is this a new behaviour of his? How was he as a 2 and three your old? My DS went through terrible twos, tantrum and meltdown city but usually when he was upset. I allowed him to have his meltdowns, gave him cuddles and asked him to express what he wanted/what was wrong, explained why he could/couldn't have it that way, lots of rewarding for good behaviour and by 3 things settled down, especially as his communication improved.

I tell them once and if they don't stop, I make them stop. Simple. I've carted them out of places by a wrist and an ankle, screaming bloody murder after warning them that if they continued to play up we would leave.

You just have to make it clear that your word is law, what the consequences are for disobedience and follow through. They quickly learn that you mean what you say.

Agree with this - I'm a sole parent split across 3 young children - the majority of my sons behaviour I would say is attention seeking - any attention to him even negative attention is good to him

The key here is consistency. Pick an approach and pick your option I'd ignored such as time out. Then stick to it and don't change it. Unless you stick to the same rules how is your child going to learn? Probably thinks it's OK mum will get bored of this and change her mind soon. It's about routine.

Do you have a close relationship with your son, do you spend time together doing the things he enjoys? Does he get enough “good” attention from you?

I have almost 4 year old boy and girl twins and my boy twin is exactly how you have described your child

Im a single parent and I do think there's elements of what others have said - I'm outnumbered so often don't think the kids see me as "top dog"

The father they only see sparingly however can get him to behave perfectly 🤔 my sons worst behaviour in terms of tantrums and defiance is reserved for me it would seem

My son was described by nursery as being an "alpha male" - I've been recommended a book to read about raising boys I'm going to give a go as honestly nothing I've tried works either

It all sounds very heavy..I totally get it. Being worn down, day after day. Have you read 'How to talk so little kids will listen'? It's totally changed my approach.

So the things you mention are the last straw, I have 9 different 'tools' to use before I get to that point - choices is one of them but if that doesn't work, I'll try another. Read the 'cooperation' chapter. There's a summary at the end of each chapter so no need to even read the book of you're pressed for time.

See, this here absolutely sums up why standard parenting advice often doesn’t work for ND kids. I absolutely agree that all 4 year olds can be menaces who push boundaries. But your 4 year old heard the consequence, got upset, but then acted to avoid the consequence. My nephews would have done exactly the same and I expect my youngest child will at age 4 as well.

That is literally something that would have never happened with DC1. He would have heard the consequence, before physically, verbally and potentially violently resisting the solution for hours on end. He would have never got himself dressed if he didn’t want to no matter how big the threat (and believe me, before knowing better we’ve been there). I would have absolutely had to pin him down dress him by force. The only way to get him to do the things I want him to do is by being collaborative and giving him lots of autonomy. Consequences and force do not work.

This is not a criticism of you at all. But maybe more generally a criticism of MN posters who so quickly spring to ‘immediate consequences’ for desperate posters, who, despite repeatedly saying this doesn’t work, are shouted down the minute neurodiversity is suggested.

And chocolate, lattes, brioche with good strawberry jam, nice pj's, a bubble bath when dc are asleep (or middle of the day when they're at school!). Any others? 😄

I told my 4 year old if he didn’t get dressed this morning then he’d have to stay at home and do housework!!! He cried but he got dressed eventually as he didn’t fancy a day of washing up and ironing, they’re all the same for pushing boundaries at this age and we’ve got to ride it out, wine is your friend

@VivaVivaa so so familiar. Even now, at 13, I have to explain regularly that there is a hierarchy; parents, teachers make the rules and so on.
It never makes sense. But he is trying to play the game. It's incredibly tough.

I’ve just read your post. Incredibly similar. Life with a high IQ PDAer is extremely hard. The following struck me from your post:

Most kids, even the really challenging ones, have an innate desire to be compliant and please parents ( as long as being directed)

This is spot on. My NT nephews and niece could be monsters at 4. But fundamentally, their parents were top dog. They knew when they had pushed them too far and toed the line. They might argue with their parents, but really, what mum and dad said went. They generally wanted mum and dad to be pleased with them.

If you have a child who seemingly has no understanding of the parent-child hierarchy and has absolutely no desire to please their parents, I’d say you are probably dealing with an ND child (if you are confident your parenting is up to standard). I’m sure I’ll be shot down for that, but it’s what I’ve witnessed time and again.

In that instance I didn’t see what happened until he’d done it and another kid had punched him.

If he walked across a kid's painting on the floor at the park before you noticed him, I think maybe he knows you aren't on him 100% if the time. There is literally no down time at that age, the time to sit and watch them in the park comes later. You need to be within arms reach of him in the park all the time and the moment the foot goes onto the painting you're on him pulling him off.

The ignoring is because you're on his periphery and he's not used to factoring in your approval of what he's doing: until you can trust him a bit more, he needs to know that everything he gets to do is by your leave not his own decision to do if that makes sense. The dynamic needs to change so you aren't following him around saying no, he's following you around to find out what the plan is and what he's going to get to do now. But it is exhausting!

These are all actions that are not your child being naughty. They are him trying to meet his sensory needs.

He needs to walk over the painting and climb the bookcase. It’s not about you controlling him, and you won’t be able to preempt every unwanted action he might take. Give yourself a break. 4 year olds are tough. 4 year olds with a neurodiversity are even tougher.

If he is over chaotic, running, climbing etc, then does he have plenty of opportunities to do this in an allowed safe way? Have you looked at sensory swings for the home? Climbing frames? Lots of time outside?

My son does have ADHD and sounds quite similar to yours, but some 4 year olds are also just more boisterous than others.

Try reading “the out of sync child” and see if any of it resonates.

@VivaVivaa such a similar experience. NHS rejected assessment request; the loves they are.

ADHD/Autism/PDA diagnosis age 9.

I knew this was going to be about a 4-5 year old before I even opened it.

Mine was similar. ‘Quirky’ and ‘a character’ in pre school/reception, extremely bright, but generally well behaved. Completely out of control at home. Extreme energy, very impulsive and absolutely no desire to please or listen. Never, ever learnt from any consequences.

We are good parents. We knew we were. We parent much, much harder than a lot of other people with easier kids. Water tight boundaries and high expectations for behaviour. We did all the courses at our own cost.

We’ve just been given a diagnosis of autism with high intelligence. He elements of PDA where masking is common. I suspect we will get an ADHD diagnosis at some point.

There were other things. He is sensory seeking, he was delayed with gross motor development, he seems sociable on the surface but it’s clear often reflects back other children verbatim. He cannot manage any frustration at all. He hyper focuses on a few special interests. All of these things alone would be normal for a 4 year old, but together, not so much.

We paid for a private assessment. It wasn’t even on our radar until an NHS therapist we were seeing for his mobility mentioned autism. I don’t think he’d be considered for nhs assessment.

I said I knew this was going to be about a 4-5 year old because this is the age differences start to show. A lot of 4-5 year olds have realised that collaboration pays off more than resistance. They have realised there is a difference between them and their parents. Of course they don’t get it right all the time, but the ones who never get it right start to become more obvious.

If you are confident you are a ‘good’ parent, ie you do everything on this thread and you do what other parents with seemingly ‘good’ children do and life is still very difficult, I’d keep an open mind for ND. He could still well grow out of it with good parenting. But equally he may not.

Good entry resources include At Peace Parenting (social media) and The Explosive Child (a book).

At that age it's important to always say what to do, rather than what not to do. For example you shout "hold on tight," instead of "don't let go," because their brains process the "let go," before the "don't." In the coat example you say "let's walk round all the coats without touching them, well done." It doesn't sound like he's ready to be running around the park unaccompanied to have the chance to stand on paintings.

I'd also try being full on engaged when you are with him, to see if it's partly for your attention. So get up the climbing frame, kick a ball back and forth, set up the craft activity and get dug in. Dig deep for your inner party entertainer, running commentary and a lot of praise. It's not long term, but might reset patterns and help get to the bottom of it.

I think you can get in the rut of firefighting problems that you lose any time to be having fun with them. He'll then see that playing up gets your attention and keep doing it. It's only successful to let them entertain themselves after you've set the groundwork, otherwise they genuinely don't know what to do.

Good luck, in a few years you'll look back at this as a blip, x