Feels like I'm losing the kids

@HandOld he does know how it sounds. He does know what he's doing. He's doing it on purpose because it upsets you. Shouting and then saying 'I'm not shouting' so that you start questioning your own judgement is exactly what gaslighting is, and the confusion and head pain it causes are classic signs.

The thing to remember is that this is what it looks like - a grown man bullying his wife and doing it in front of his children because he knows that adds an extra layer to her distress. Deliberately making children witnesses to abuse is a recognised aspect of coercive control.

He does not care about your children, not really. Again, it's exactly what it looks like. People who care about their children do not abuse the other parent in front of them.

Please have at the examples of coercive control here: safelives.org.uk/about-domestic-abuse/what-is-domestic-abuse/coercive-control/

OP, just a warning. I'm surrounded by gaslighting abusive people. I am single but these have been in my sphere most my life.

Now, I see it every time and it's a full time job calling it out. It's best you completely detach but as you're living there, I agree with the poster who said you must call it out so the kids see it. Because as males, there's a huge risk they will adopt those behaviours and eventually use them against you or adopt certain tactics in relationship with others.

I have a pre teen who often uses ' you're too sensitive ', ' you're over reacting ' type responses to challenge. I'm pretty sure exposure to professional gaslighters and emotionally stunted adults has contributed. The fact it took me time to see it and call it out didn't help. I knew no different until years and years of counselling.

Stop it before it's passed on generationally.

If my husband ever spoke to me like that, I’d tell him to try talking to me like that one more time, and see what happens. Don’t let him treat you this way. I’m certain if you matched his tone and words (away from the kids, of course), he’d be stunned. Sometimes a dose of their own medicine is exactly what’s needed to make them see the impact of their words.

They're cuddling him because they have learnt that to get him to be nice to them / you, they and you have to be nice to him first.

They're cuddling him because they're scared that if they don't, he'll shout at them like he shouts at you.

You are allowing this. Because you are accepting it.

So every single time he speaks to you in the wrong way, you call it out. "It is not ok to speak to me in that way." "Please lower your voice." Etc. this will show your kids that what daddy is doing is wrong and not ok.

You're all victims of his emotional abuse so stop putting yourself down. It's time to get tough. They're young enough to have space away from this and have a chance at developing healthy patterns ( when they are with you). They will develop certain personality traits because of him so it's better you leave than stay. Also, you as the mum must always put yourself first in order to be an even better mum than you are already.

If they want to be with him and never see you, this is absolutely out your control and was always going to be. If they are of that feeling, then they'll become quite difficult for you to manage on top of the abusive husband if you stay there. You'll potential have 3 of them up against you and you do not want that. You need to escape, offer them a space to be with you and just go with what comes week by week. You can't predict how it will play out. I really doubt they'll want to not see you. He's a head f**k.

This. Poor kids. Poor you.

Don’t let them grow up thinking that’s how a man should treat his wife, and definitely don’t let them live their lives in this hostile and negative environment.

Your kids are probably scared of him.

Would it be nice not to live with him?

The children will feel uncertain about leaving with you because of the unknown changes, but with time and reassurance they will start to feel better

You need to leave asap.

it won’t strengthen their bond - what will happen is that when the cowardly, aggressive, weak, silly shit has them alone and doesn’t want to do the hard yards or to keep up the Jolly Daddy pretence when he just wants to watch the footy but it’s his weekend to have them - he will disengage. He’s not likely to want good, consistent contact. He will start letting them down when you’re not there to do the hard stuff, as you say in your OP.

Also - they may love him but they also fear him. They’re all over him because they know what the game is by now. They play their roles and out come the sweets and no one shouts any more. Your kids are protecting themselves.

Leave. There will be hard times but ultimately they will grow, they will see him for what he is, and you’ll have a home where YOU are the boss and my word, what a much nicer place it will be, where people can relax and be secure in a family, than Daddy’s place. Even if they go through periods where they choose him, because they need to work things out for themselves, even by giving them that secure home you will save them. And you will also save yourself and your relationship with them. They will see you not as the downtrodden one they need to collude in bullying to stay safe, but the strong loving mum who said NO MORE.

Do you have a family member or friend that the children will come with you to go and visit, while you call women’s aid?

Clarify what you mean by his debt that you are paying ?
Can you refuse to take on his debt?
Its brave of you to make plans to leave and it’s understandable that you are feeling exhausted

Do not, and I cannot stress this enough, do not let him use your children to bully you into staying because you think your relationship with them is over if you leave.

I'm another one who was guilty of sometimes fawning over my abusive father because I was desperate to make him stop, and he used to do the thing of being nasty to my mother in front of me. He did it deliberately. I understand that now. And if I got upset, it only encouraged him to be even worse. So I learned early on not to. Appease his moods. Tell him what he wanted to hear. Cuddle him when being near him made me feel sick.

He does not care about the children. If he did, he wouldn't speak to you like that in front of them. He's doing it in front of them on purpose and they are doing the best they can to manage that situation. He's being nice to them because it's to his advantage right now. It gives him power and it hurts you. They are reacting the way they are because what else can they do, really? Don't be fooled into thinking it means more than it does.

They are very young. What has been done can still be undone. But they need space from him in order to do it.

FWIW when my father asked me if I loved him I always said yes. But I didn't. I hated him.

I’m sorry this is what you are having to deal with,💕🥲 he’s such a cruel man to behave this way towards you, and it’s no accident that he’s doing it in front of your children s eyes.

it’s a form of control over them as well as you.

They do love you! They just need to please him to feel safe as they know that if they are on the wrong side of him he could get nasty, like they see him behaving when he’s nasty towards you.

He will never change
But you can change and so can the children.

Go with the children to a family member, a friend, or a coffee shop and call women’s aid for support.

This.

I think you need to leave now ASAP while they're little and before your H does them any more damage. Once they are 10+ they may get a say in where they live.

Please don't feel they love him more, like PP said they're trauma bonded. Of course they run to Daddy and fawn over him because they don't want him to shout at them like he does at you and they know he'll be angry if they go to you.

Even if he has them 50% when you split, you'll be giving them a calm home for 50% of the time and removing them as missiles that he can use to get at you. Will he even actually want them 50% or does he just enjoy the cuddles, using them to get at you and giving them sweeties?

Manipulate them into thinking you’re the best parent by giving in (temporarily) to what they want, giving lots of cuddles, taking them out, doing special things with just you. Kids aren’t stupid. When they realise mum can be just as fun and lovely as dad (but without the shouting and swearing) they will naturally come to prefer you. Don’t fall into the trap of being strict with them because he’s indulgent

Or, you could ignore this advice from @Ozanj and focus on being the consistent, predictable, safe parent

Take a video next time he does this. So sorry for you Op.

They are trauma bonding and you are allowing it. You should have left the room with the children when he started. If he gets physical, you call the police.

Not sure I would agree my previous post constitutes breaking the talk guidelines. It wasn’t a personal attack but may have contained a more incredulous response to a posters massive assumption with an expletive commonly used unmoderated on MN.

They're doing this because they're scared of him and trying to appease him . I know because I experienced the same growing up . You're not going to lose them .

You have no idea what I know or have experienced. So it may be better to think before you post (that would be showing all due respect)