NMW to increase again next year to £12.21 ph.

I think it means staff who were slightly above that rate will remain on the same rate while others less senior will obviously be brought up to that level. So it could seem unfair to quite a few people. As the employer can't afford to bump up the wages in accordance for those who were on a few quid more previously.

Funnily enough I actually think most people having enough money to live on and not being exploited for their labour is more important than anyone's luck with finding "somewhere nice for a Sunday roast". I think when you've calmed down a bit you'll agree.

No reason at all! We have a low wage economy and this is a practical consequence. I was responding to the general thread on why the NMW kept on increasing, and pointed out a major benefit to govt coffers which explains this. But - whilst I don't want to suggest I'm attacking benefits - the real problem is that people can't live off a full time wage, and that is a problem with our economy generally.

We cannot continue to pay people shit wages just to prevent businesses not closing. Sorry, but we can’t.
I have run a business before and I had to shut it because I couldn’t afford the staff I needed to run it.
It was a great idea and I loved running it, but in all honesty, it was not financially viable.
Some businesses just aren’t, and that is not the responsibility of the employee, and there shouldn’t be an expectation that I won’t want more money because I will cause a company to shut.
Big businesses have always taken the piss, remember the “work experience” they made people on benefits do? When they had to work in Poundland or Tesco as a part of getting their benefits? And those businesses were only too happy to take that.
Its time that those at the bottom who do the shit, hard jobs that many of you could not function without us doing, got paid fairly for doing it.

Quite.

Think about those defaulting renters and mortgage payers and the knock on effects of that and how much that costs everyone else too.

The monumentual lack of joined up thinking on this thread is truly a sight to behold.

I’m a CEO in the voluntary sector and pay all my team above minimum wage - but whilst rewarding it’s also a very stressful job dealing with people who are very stressed or in crisis
The nearer the minimum wage gets to what my staff earn I get told ‘why should I do this for x amount per hour when I can get same in xx supermarket for a much lower stress job’ I understand but can’t pay more!
Our contracts are fixed and we are being asked to do more for less
Fundraising from trusts and foundations have become harder, amounts reduced and are more competitive
I recently applied for a small amount of money to deliver a new project from a local council (max amount £10k) they emailed me to ask if I could reduce my application as they are oversubscribed - wanted to cut to between £3 and £5k, even at minimum wage that’s not a lot of staff time to deliver vital services plus all the on costs
I really don’t want to make people redundant but will have to consider cutting people’s hours (including my own) to manage spiralling costs

DH was talking to a bloke this weekend. He runs his own company.

Last year he was importing goods from china for £14k per container. This year due to trouble in the Middle East affecting shipping its £34k for the same container.

He's been trading for 30 years.

THEN add wages.

You can talk about how people shouldn't take the risk and should understand these issues and the business should close etc etc. But you are a fucking idiot.

Then you can all work for huge multinationals who have bigger turnovers than many countries and therefore huge amounts of political influence. And see how long the NWM stays where it is and how long workers rights are maintained. It represents a weakening of the power of the labour force if you wipe out small business.

We seem to think that wages can only rise...

I hope he does close, that's a 4th pub closed in his town. Yet another community asset lost. I suppose when the nurseries start closing that's when people will start shouting. Good luck with finding 'somewhere nice for a Sunday Roast' when your pub closes.

This.

All of my staff get £20ph minimum regardless of their age etc.

A business goes under because it can't afford staff costs.

Where are the jobs for the newly unemployed?

I'm sure those that use the pub feel strongly, I would too in their position but they still aren't enough people if his pub is not financially viable, that is just a bare fact. The community of local pub goers is obviously just not large enough or regular enough to support his pub, the demand is just not there.

It's still not a charity and is meant to be run for profit, it's sad that your relative is unable to do this but that doesn't mean that he should be able to exploit cheap labour and pay people wages that very often are not enough to live on and must be subsidised by benefits. I think deep down you know this really but are just caught up with the sympathy for your relative.

I didn’t say it wasn’t useful to the community. But unless they are paying over enough money, it’s not a viable business. That’s how business works.

The trouble is NMW isn't paid in a bubble.

If you are a student or young person living at home this is probably a good thing.

But for those of us at this level, the reality is that every other cost we pay will go up so what on paper looks good doesn't help in reality. And who is most affected by that, oh yes people on NMW and just above.

Universal credit has had to pick up the difference between a non living wage and just about able to manage. I don’t mind government subsidising a small struggling employer (such as children’s nursery) but subsidising those who then pass on record profits to shareholders is just taking the piss.

Also we shouldn’t be aiming downwards, people are truly financially rogered at the moment (see that sad post the other day regarding endless grinding poverty), something needs to change. £12 an hour is hardly a kings ransom to live on. We need to make work pay again.

Are people really this dumb?

Small businesses aren't the problem.

The treasury are having to raise more money because of a lack of income.

The way that multinationals are structured - legally - by offshoring to reduce their tax liability means they are paying less in tax per employee compared to a small business by some margin.

Its actually small businesses that have been subsidising this practice because they've had to pay more taxes in various different ways, because the government is trying to get that revenue from elsewhere.

Whats happening is that small businesses are no longer viable because the multinationals aren't paying tax £ for £ at anywhere near the same rate. The profits are going to shareholders and foreign owners. The money isn't being recycled within the UK economy - its exiting the UK economy and the country gets poorer as a result.

Small businesses are the engine that drive our economy. A new British based business is of far more value to us as a society than a much larger foreign based one for this reason. They are what allow us to ultimately increase our GDP in the longer term.

We run the risk here to go in a similar direction to Japan with economic stagnation where the bubble burst and in the end wages were forced to reduce. (Remember those import costs aren't going to go down).

As someone who advises SMEs I say hallelujah to this!

These are recommendations from the Low Pay Commission. They are made in order to keep up with average pay levels so as not to fall too far behind.

If you read my PP, you'll have read 3 pubs have closed in his town. There are 2 left. The locals don't want him to close. But in your opinion 'not enough people want to drink in his pub'. He hosts darts nights, quiz nights, curry nights, Sunday Roasts and does Funerals and other community functions. But who cares about the community eh?

Yes and horse driven taxis were financially viable before the motor car but unfortunately things change and if you are in business you need to adapt or die. I'm sorry this is coming as a shock to you you really should have taken some advice before starting a business if you didn't realise there were risks and uncertainty involved.

A paramedics starting salary may be that but after 2 years it is usually £35k plus and if you get to the top it can be £75k plus.

A bar persons salary may be £25,396 when they start but 10 years later it will pretty much still be £25,396 plus increases in minimum wage,

if anyone is in a poorly paid job and feels undervalued in relation to what they could be doing for NMW then change jobs. There is nothing stopping anyone if your only criteria is money.

Alongside the increase I would like to see the taper rate change on UC so that people who need it actually get a shot at earning and keeping a bit of money.

Absolutely

Lots of the NMW jobs are in the care sector. If we want to encourage people to take these jobs rather than have to find jobseekers from overseas which is what is currently happening, these salaries need to increase. A start is to make the NMW truly a living wage. We can't really afford not to do this.

Then obviously not enough people want to drink in his pub, as another poster has pointed out. It’s a business. If there’s insufficient demand then it will close.

Many businesses can't employ under 18s in the same way that they did in the past, because kids have to stay in some sort of education until they are 18. This means the number of kids available to work during most day time working hours is extremely limited. These type of businesses don't want to take on staff as apprentices because they can't necessarily commit to fulfilling the obligations that it creates - not to mention the additional work load. They want staff who can do the job well, rather than put the investiment into training (this isn't just financial, its time consuming).

People seem to forget that kids don't just leave school at 16 in the same way they used to.