Conservatives and Labour - is there really any difference for middle class working families

You can't expect labour to magically unwind and fix all of the shit the tories have left behind. They need time to make changes and they can't suddenly overnight fix the cost of living crisis.

People will find it hard to defend Reeves on Wednesday.

I am confident about that, but we can circle back then.

I think this is what drives me mad.

He isn't straight talking. Working people logically means people who work - until it doesn't.

But then when a PM can't define what a woman is you've got to wonder.

I have no problem with paying higher taxes but I think there is a duty on a government to demonstrate that they are going to spend those taxes responsibly. The NHS would do well to focus on healthcare rather than EDI scheme's which are causing women to have reason to sue NHS trusts.

After 14 years I was hoping for more straight talking no nonsense politics. It's disappointing and bemusing that no one actually knows what he means when he says 'working people'.

Obviously we will have to wait until Wednesday for the specifics.

Well me and DH are both self employed so apparently we aren't "working" anyway according to KS!

Agree.

It is illogical and shows a lack of critical thinking and common sense to expect a party to come in and reverse 14 years of damage from the last party in a couple of months.

You are wrong.
What's this 'spite' nonsense? Where have you got that from?
They are emphatically not all the same, for the reasons expressed eloquently by several posters already on this thread.

I am always amazed at the number of first time posters who hate Labour!
It also surprises me the number of first time posters who voted Labour but now regret it.
We are still recovering from years of Tories, I'm prepared to wait a bit longer before deciding that Labour are worse than that.

@Alexandra2001 Employer NI contributions going up WILL affect 'working people', just not immediately.
Businesses have got to find the money to fund them from somewhere so it will come from their overall staffing budget. That means pay rises will likely be less and/or recruitment will be affected. So whilst you won't see an impact in your pay packet next month, or in the next 3 months, over the longer term it will impact people.
I manage the budget for a SME and I can see how this will pan out very easily.

NB - in reality, the money HAS to come from somewhere, and it will have to come from tax. What they should have done is just say (in the manifesto) that income tax would go up by 1p. But that wouldn't win votes. The reality is that 'working people' (whatever that means) will be affected, but of course they will because where else will the money come from?

There is a massive distinction between Labour and the Tories.

Labour are ideological - they are positively dripping in spite. I bitterly regret giving them my vote,
and fear that many of you will too, on Wednesday.

Tell me I’m wrong, please.

They are all a bunch of self important, hypocritical megalomaniacs. Anyone who thinks otherwise is utterly deluding themselves.

Absolutely this.

Although debt is still going up, it has and will more as fiscal rules change

I am not a labour supporter.

But. As a country, we need to swing between left and right so we stay broadly in the centre, we have swung to the right for too long (IMO due to Corben being so utterly detestable to anyone) that now Labour have swung to the right too so we have moved from the centre over to the right.

Or something.

I was the same as you but then I was lucky enough to have a disabled child who has an ehcp and goes to specialist school so even though I’m a higher rate tax payer I’m getting more for my money as his school is a lot more expensive per child than mainstream. Same applies for people who are lucky enough to get seriously ill they are then getting their monies worth. The idea of paying in is not for what you get out it’s so it’s there for people that need it which could be you at some point. I’m not saying this works perfectly or even well but fundamentally this is the basic idea

I'm not so much bothered about my own "middle class" circumstances but I would like to see more positive steps for those living on poverty. I would especially like more support for those living with disabilities who seemed demonised under the Tories. I voted Labour but I haven't heard anything yet that makes me feel particularly positive.

Lived through quite a few governments and yes it's always the middle working class families who lose out, every single time. Not wealthy enough for it not to adversely affect you too much, not poor enough to be eligible for help/benefits

I can't really see much difference between the two parties. I felt like there was a slim chance that Labour might renationalise a few things like water and a chance that the conservatives might sell even more essential services to make money.

I think this is a good summary of the different approaches. And the things is, neither is exactly wrong.

That being said - we seem to have an awful lot of people now who feel entitled to be supported by others, or they'd say the state I suppose. The numbers now working are so high. I know people will say they can't work, but I am increasingly skeptical, we don't see this in places where there isn't this underlying belief that people are entitled to be supported.

As a younger person, I never believed this was a danger of social supports, but I increasingly feel that there really is such a thing as learned helplessness, and totally apart from social consequences, it's actually very bad for people psychologically to feel disempowered.

Public serves are the worst they've ever been in my lifetime. People are constantly complaining the police don't come if you call them, people wait hours for ambulances and are told to get to hospitals themselves, the roads are fucked with potholes and constantly damaging cars where I live. They put the council tax up every year but the cut the service every year and have now said that they are stopping collecting the garden bin at all, unless we want to subscribe for an extra service at £60 a year.

I don't mind paying taxes if we get good public services like other high tax countries but I don't think you can seriously argue that we get what we pay for.

I think that we've forgotten when we used to have dentists, ambulances and other services. If the Conservatives had have got in again we wouldn't have had prison places at all. They've ran things completely into the ground. We are only just learning the extent of the money wasted on projects that were just money making opportunities for their family and friends. Austerity and the bedroom tax/LHA has brought homelessness to the North that wasn't needed, made renting /SH impossible to get and has just meant lots of cheap 3+ bedroom houses for sale as investment opportunities, again for those who are wealthy.

The economy of countries now are so integrated there aren't a whole lot of different directions any government can take. It's a global economy.

This is probably why Labour axed the winter fuel payment - as a signal to financial bigwigs outside the country that they are serious about fiscal responsibility. Because if they don't show that their borrowing power will disappear, and then they, and the people, are fucked.

Ultimately whatever party is in power, if they want to fund things they need to increase productivity.

And whatever party is in power, they are living with the effects of post-covid, which are both fiscal and I think psychological. The latter seems to be affecting the ability to increase productivity.

And personally, I think systems like the NHS (Canada is similar) are going to struggle until their underlying structure is revised. I don't think any party can touch that until it fails, and that's on the media and the population.

In the past, the Labour Party has borrowed a lot of money to make changes, but that's just not an option now.

The main difference is the Tories' premise is cut back state intervention; so people pay less tax but get worse/fewer services. The Labour model is to provide a level of state intervention so that people are reasonably healthy, well educated and have the services to enable them to thrive.

They both want to grow the economy; but the Tory model is incentivise people to work harder/smarter by allowing them to keep more of what they earn (but they will need to spend some of this on the essential services which the state no longer funds properly). Whilst Labour believes that people work more productively, and thus more profitably, when their basic needs are met and they feel empowered.

Too many people think about what is in this for me, rather than what is in this for the country. You have to see the big picture if you want to live in a richer Britain.

Isn’t it? 👏🏻👏🏻

I agree.

I have grandchildren in Scandinavia; I compare their lives - and communities and public well-being - with same-age grandkids in GB. Scandinavians win by a long distance, thanks to years of social-democratic government.

I'm old enough to have lived through several Labour governments as well as Tories. In every case, Labour has improved things for ordinary people, Tories have made things worse for the majority whilst siphoning off wealth for themselves and their friends. Inequality rose with Tories, declined with Labour.

They don't always get everything right - who does? - but say what you like, my own experience, both geographically and historically, is super clear: for ordinary people like me and my family, Labour always makes things better in the end, Tories make things worse.