Conservatives and Labour - is there really any difference for middle class working families

No - I agree several prominent people and societies have spoken out.

We very lucky DD2 is missing the whole upheaval - she gets to sit triple and like her older siblings and go on to science A-levels with better foundation. Year below her will as well I think.

We've spent a small fortune on revision and text books at home which will all have to be re-written and re-bought by parents in following years.

English goes back to one GCSE rather than language and Lit which also not sure is a great idea. Though again DD2 French teacher thinks new syllabus does have some areas it will be better than current course.

I’m in Wales and mostly think the Senedd do pretty well within the constraints they have - however as an ex teacher I agree about the Curriculum for Wales. It’s horrible.

I agree OP, I doubt it makes a blind bit of difference.

Problem is twofold…

1. cost of middle class living is unaffordable for the latest generation of adults. Just affording housing and childcare is so ridiculously expensive - things like luxury cars and private school fees are off the table. I don’t know anyone who can afford a house like their parents own in the South East. Cost of childcare alone seem to keep households even above six figures feeling strained.

2. all the governments ever do is fiddle around the edges. The tax changes amount to small
   amounts each year - a weekend break or a couple of food shops. There’s never anything radical which actually improves eg housing, schooling etc

I also think the gap between ‘survival wages topped up by benefits’ and ‘oh you’re the middle class you’re loaded’ seems to now be <£1,000 a month which is really not a huge amount.

From a Starmer press release which unaccountably doesn’t seem to have featured in main news/analysis broadcasts yet:

“If people want to criticise the path we choose, that’s their prerogative. But let them then spell out a different direction. If they think the state has grown too big, let them tell working people which public services they would cut. If they don’t see our long-term investment in infrastructure as necessary, let them explain to working people how they would grow the economy for them."
www.gov.uk/government/news/pm-governments-first-budget-will-invest-in-britains-future

What’s your answer? Or any of the others criticising before they even see the budget?

Not nearly enough fuss has been made about Welsh students now no longer being able to study individual science subjects at GCSE. Only double science.

Not the only one - though from posting recently I don't think we're supposed to mention their record here.

Post 16 I'm happier with Welsh education - AS levels being part of A-levels BTEC being an option still and uni funding.

But I saw a recent ITV specials about why reading levels were so low in Wales -
https://www.itv.com/news/2024-10-16/wales-reading-crisis-welsh-government-makes-another-u-turn-on-teaching-methods which was eye opening.

Taxes were always going to have to go up who ever got in- our demographics and lack of investment and real harm austerity did - just have to wait and see where it falls and what they actually do.

see I’d rather pay for my prescriptions and not have a 5 year wait for a hysterectomy, a 5 year wait for mental health support, and no access to treatments that are freely available in England, oh and a local major hospital with roof that’s crumbled and is now no longer able to take trauma patients, maternity patients, or perform any kind of surgery. Said 5 year wait sounds like it’s going to be 6+ years…

My post said nothing about not protecting those who need looking after. Higher taxes does not help lower paid workers, allowing them to keep more of their earned salary does, so increase tax thresholds and/or lower taxes.

Envy and spite is happening and will continue to do so - people who can afford private health and private schools, or any private resources which take the pressure of the state should be encouraged not taxed.

IMO due to Corben being so utterly detestable to anyone

Funny thing is, when people were asked to rank policies with the name of the proposer/party removed, they overwhelmingly favoured Corbyn's policies.

The cult of personality and media driven narratives have a lot to answer for imo.

Wanting greater equality and better quality of life for people in lower paid jobs isn’t about envy. That’s an old trope to try and keep the poor poor.

Im fine financially at the moment so I’m not feeling envy or spite. I work with those less privileged and see the struggle. There is no way out of poverty for some no matter how hard they work.

We need the factory workers, delivery drivers, shop keepers, carers so why shouldn’t they be able afford a decent quality of life. There will always be some people who are unable to work. Why wouldn’t we want to look after them? Why wouldn’t you want a fairer society?

We are all only a couple of traumatic life events from possible destitution. Richer doesn’t mean better.

We ALL take from the state. Having emergency services is something every single one of us benefits from. Imagine a world where if you are in an accident you have to get yourself to hospital or if your house is on fire you have to put it out yourself. Or if you are attacked it’s just tough luck. No police or justice system. The security that comes from this invaluable.

Give it time. We have had so long with austerity measures and mismanagement. We did great under the last Labour government. PFI and the Iraq war aside, things were good for is and I regret voting differently back then on those two issues.

@Hoppinggreen You make very valid points. Sadly the only certainty will be a Labour government will increase taxes, this budget and in the future, services will not improve, public sector workers will get more money for no increase in productivity, unions will weald more power and envy/spite politics will continue.

The problem we have in this country is the "Tories" are too left leaning and have forgot what conservatism is . It was always going to be that Labour claim there are "black holes", it was all the Tories fault.

For people, like yourself, who work hard and do not take much from the state it is going to be hard.

If they improve NHS you will benefit. If they improve education you will benefit ( if you have children at school). If you have children with SEN and they improve SEN support in education you will benefit.
What kind of promises do you want?

I've been told several times to stop moaning.

The Conservative Party no longer exists - it chose to become the Brexit Party and has served up a series of lunatic leaders since and looks set to continue to.

They were a disaster in government and had to go.

The brutal reality is taxes have to increase. The demographics of this country have fundamentally shifted - healthcare costs for the over 85’s are ten times higher than that of 18 - 25’s are people are living longer and longer. If we want to continue to have the health and welfare systems we have we are all going to have to pay more.

Do I want to pay more? Of course not. No sensible person does. It’s just economic reality.

CGT being increased, take a look at other countries it’s not that high here. IHT - personally I think we should copy Australia and charge CGT on all transfers on death but British people are obsessed with the idea that they should be able to pass on their house tax free when they die so that wouldn’t work politically. Do I want my pension to be charged to IHT? No. But it wouldn’t be a completely unreasonable suggestion. And obviously until the budget is announced these are just rumours.

I didn’t vote Labour and I’m not convinced by Keir Starmer but to say there’s no difference I don’t think is correct and I don’t think there was any other reasonable option.

It Makes me laugh that everyone thought Labour would be a new dawn. They do know that the country is still paying off everyone’s furloughs during covid and will be for a long time. Of course there are going to be spending cuts and tax increases. It’s basic common sense, no matter what party gets in.

and the NHS? IMHO no one can fix that. The whole system needs an entire overhaul.

There may not be today, but over time there will be, if only because the Tories cannot do the things they would have done had they been returned to power.

@Sweetcup , I feel your frustration and I agree with you. Politically I am fiscally Conservative and socially I’m relatively liberal. Everything I say and everything anyone else says needs to be taken with the understanding that we speak from a politically biased perspective.
I didn’t really engage with politics in a big way until I had a home and a family of my own, up until then I was too busy being young and having a good time and the country at that time 1980’s was doing well and had an optimistic feeling. During this time Margaret Thatcher (Conservative) was PM. Then we had John Major who was a puppet in my opinion and following that Tony Blair (labour) I didn’t notice a difference. Fast forward to more recently and we had David Cameron AKA heir to Blair and the unedifying spectacle of repeated change of party leader culminating in Mr Sunak. Most of these politicians are pretty centrist but lean towards left or right and most people won’t notice much difference. Mrs Thatcher was the last proper Conservative and Mr Corbyn the last socialist leader of the Labour Party. They are the sort of politicians who make changes that have big impacts, widely felt.
It does look like this government is not very friendly to business and that will filter down to employees of course, they don’t seem to be inclined to encourage saving and investing which is good for the individual and for the country. The previous Conservative administration did at least do that.
Im not looking forward to Wednesday because after 40 years self employed my husband and I retired with money invested in stocks, property and ISAs, Ms Reeves will be coming for every one of our income streams. You will notice a difference if you are a public servant, some of them have received and others will likely follow very large pay rises, Labour receives a lot of funding from the trade unions. There is usually an increase in public borrowing with a labour government which can drive up interest rates which in turn discourages investment and slow economic growth and can lead to higher taxes in the future. Potentially for future generations and Conservatives are usually not keen on it for that reason because while it feels good now we are asking our children and grandchildren to shoulder the debt for our good times. What generally happens is that a Labour government borrows and then is eventually replaced by a Conservative government who looks really mean because they have to cut public spending in order to attempt to balance the books.
In a nutshell most people won’t notice much difference and won’t unless the country has in power a government led by someone who is not centrist.

Most people will not work hard enough for what they want, and we're conditioned as a society to be worker bees and to stay in that position, placated with half price pizzas ... I'm not proud that I got a good deal on discount Domino's ... Good to see you respect your employees!

I agreed with you OP.
We are taxed so heavily - DP in higher tax bracket but we get nothing in return.

Obviously taxes benefit everyone overall but I think people were being a bit obtuse, whilst everyone pays tax as a net contributor it’s galling to see just so much of your money disappear. It’s the culture of envy it has always been thus in the UK. My brothers moved to America, now that place has many issues let’s not pretend it’s perfect but they are admired for being successful. Over here people just seem to despise success. The mega wealthy can hide their assets, buy yachts and have them set up as a business and get creative with their accountants. Households like mine take the heat. We can’t evade tax like the mega wealthy.

Is there a recording available for this morning's zoom?

I suppose it depends on whether you vote on the basis of "what will they do for me?" or on the basis of "which party will lead to a fairer society?"

@sweetcup Mine was quite extreme. I basically threw out any preconceptions and misconceptions and ideas I'd been told. For example, you can only be successful if you already come from money/have rich family, women have a ceiling they can earn at, you won't succeed in a bad economy etc.

Basically that it's never the right time for one reason or another or the odds are stacked against you.

You can apply this to anything you've been told you can't do (or told yourself you can't do), not just money/business - e.g. losing weight, moving to another country, do some kind of qualification, changing your career path.

I ignored all the negativity and "what ifs" and started my own business from nothing. It had a massively good impact on my mental health because I didn't have anyone telling me what to do or criticising me or stealing my ideas. And I did that with no business experience, a couple of grand, a house to lose if I couldn't pay the mortgage, and no family to bail me out (my partner also couldn't bail me out because I dragged him into it with me full time from the start!).

I did the things that other people aren't willing to do. Bet on myself. Being absolutely relentless and give up my life for a few years to focus on nothing but the business. Most people will not work hard enough for what they want, and we're conditioned as a society to be worker bees and to stay in that position, placated with half price pizzas and other discounts that have a ceiling, and seeing our income as a finite amount to spend instead of an unlimited potential to earn. I'm not proud that I got a good deal on discount Domino's, I'm proud that I created a business where I could afford a penthouse with a pool in Rome this summer.

You have to start by making a list of what your dream day/life looks like, and then figure out what's different about your current life and fill in the gaps/make the transition. It's not easy. Your brain wants to keep you safe and will resist change. But keeping safe is what keeps you stuck.

Oh for pity's sake. You're a couple of days too early OP, can you not have the grace to wait until the budget has been introduced before bringing on the Bucket of Despair? It's very tiresome.